Author: Simon Perry
Andrew Turner’s MP Expenses: Detail: UPDATED
5:39 pm Tuesday, 19th May, 2009, Isle of Wight
ShortURL: http://wig.ht/26wq
Read More- Island-wide, Politics
Following the release of the statement from Andrew Turner on his expenses, here’s some the detail provided.
Andrew Turner has a flat in London, close to the House of Commons, and a house in Newport.
His Newport house is claimed under MP expenses as his second home, this he said was based “on the number of nights I spent in each place at the time that I made the nomination, as this was the definition set out in the rules.”
For the lifetime of this Parliament, his main house has always been Newport London (blimey this stuff is confusing), unlike other MPs who have been accused of ‘flipping home,’ between first and second homes, also alternating the houses they were claiming for. His second home was listed as Newport.
He and his partner Carole also co-own a tenanted flat in Cowes, which he hasn’t submitted claims for.
He says that he always submitted receipts, or other documentary evidence, for every purchase under this allowance, even those for under £25, which under the current rules do not require any proof.
He also pointed out that, “I could also claim £4,800 a year for food but, as you can see from the above, I have not.”
Accommodation costs allowance breakdown
He’s also broken down his Accommodation Costs Allowance, which has caused such controversy with some other MPs.
Travel expenses
Andrew Turner states that “Daily commuting is not an option as the Commons sits until 10.30pm on Mondays and Tuesdays, 7.30pm on Wednesdays and 6.30pm on Thursdays.”
Detailing more on his travel expenses …
In terms of the other allowances available to me as an MP, in the year ending 2008 I claimed £7,870 for travel.
I could claim for the cost of first class rail travel but I invariably travel second class which means that my travel costs, even including ferry costs, are lower than some MPs who represent nearby constituencies on the mainland.
Staff travel costs (between the Island and Westminster) amounted to £976.
Office costs
The total costs of running his office were £108,842, including employing four full time staff, one of which is his partner Carole.
Interestingly, no money was paid to the local Conservative association as has happened with other MPs, who on Sunday’s The Independent have accused of using public money to subsidise political parties.
MPs’ comment on others expenses
Commenting on the current MPs’ expenses situation he said
I agree the system of MPs allowances has been widely discredited. I will not comment on what colleagues of all parties are reported to have claimed but I am very sad that it has caused so much damage to public confidence in our democracy.
For myself, I accept my hare of the responsibility and admit I am embarrassed by it all. It has been a very uncomfortable time but I hope you will now have a clearer understanding of my own position and in a few weeks the complete records will be published.
If you want the full details, read Andrew Turner’s document (pdf).
The governemnt should refurbish and manage a block of flats near to parliament and issue these to MP’s. This second home thing is all a scam. These people are employees of the people and should be paid London waiting like the rest of the people who work in London. How they can justify and utility bills, council tax and repairs when they earn the money they do is beyond me.
His staff should be paid by the governmnet, not by him. I don’t dispute he needs 4 staff or that £25K is an unreasonable wage for a London PA, but they should be interviewed,employed and paid by the government.
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A Bedtime Story
A quick browse through the black and white (far more black than white) of Andrews expenses, and I noted an interesting entry in white, obviously I could not see any items in black; and has I am suffering double cataracts, I may have seen nothing at all:-)
Five foot, LINIUM Headboard £90.00
Five foot, Cygnet Headboard £119.00
Now this could indicate a King size bed in two rooms or two King size beds in one room,
Or had one head board just been exchanged, one for one?
This is when total transparency does help everyone.
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I’m not a Conservative, but Andrew Turner strikes me as an honest citizen, probably more so than some of the journalists who are making hay with this information. The editor of the Daily Mail, a paper currently revelling in the discomfiture of MP’s, has very interesting record (published in Private Eye), so pots and kettles come to mind!
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We want an islander to represent us at Westminster – Not someone sent here by the Conservative Central Office. OK Andrew is not a bad sort of chap and does try, but behind every man is a very good woman pulling the strings:-)
We should have more say in who is SELECTED to represent us. Fat too many Tory toffs and Trade unionists. Most Ministers and those in opposition are millionaires; what do they care about Joe Bloggs?
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You do have sufficient “say” in who represents your constituency. We live in a democracy. It’s called “a vote”. You have voting rights.
If you want a change in a leader use your vote. If there isnt anyone who you would choose to vote for then why not put yourself up for election.
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The people put up for election are selected by a chosen few – It’s either Tory, Labour or the also rans – We can only vote for who are selected by a very small minority, that’s the way it’s been for centuries. If I was to stand I would just get a few votes because the powerful party machines would see to that. They select the yes men/women; they have no voice of their own – Follow the Whip or else. Is this democracy? I’m sick to the teeth of Etonians and Trade Unionist calling the tune, And the latter soon change their cloth caps to bowlers after a few years on the gravy trains.
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I should make it clear that I am a fan of Andrew Turner despite his politics
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Why does his mortgage interest rise each year? I understood mortgages rates were falling year on year. So does that mean Andrew has been increasing his mortgage i.e an interest free loan!
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We’ve chatted to Carole from Andrew’s office who is on her way back to the Island from Parliament.
The quick explanation she gave us sounded very reasonable.
She said she’d put a comment on here when she gets back on the Island, later today.
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Who is our Member of Parliament. I never voted for a woman.
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The Conservative Head Quarters on Carisbrooke Road has thee storeys and at least a dozen room?
Who owns this large property and could it not be put to better use. A luxury flat for our Mp and his partner, perhaps? I am sure that despite all the adverse reports and comments about booze. expenses. etceteras. Mr turner MP will be returned, along with his partner. However, I do not agree that wife’s, Siblings and partners should be in the employment of MPs – All posts should be advertised.
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Did she ever write on this VBand would she use her name?
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The mortgage has been with the same lender since a straight remortgage in 2004/5. There was no additional borrowing; the remortgage was simply to get a better ‘deal’. It is a tracker mortgage linked to the bank base rate which was chosen on the advice of a broker.
The figure shown is for the year ending March 2008, interest rates have fallen since then and the interest figure for the next year 2008/9) is less than £10,000. The only change in the outstanding mortgage balance is that it has fallen slightly as the monthly payment includes capital and interest – it is only the interest part that has been reclaimed.
I hope that answers the question.
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can you ask him to pay my mortgage too…after all I pay his mortgage, and utilities, and repairs.
Would the job of serving the people be so attractive if it was just based on a wage, I wonder?
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So Andrew was claiming Newport as his second home even when his was recovering from his illness and living there full time!
Quite simple really, I suspect he was claiming for the home that gave him the most in expenses.
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Just who is the person ‘Posting’ under the name of
‘Andrew Turners Office?’ transparency and openness starts at this address, or it should do.
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You must be a relative or an old pal from Eton – Rugby perhaps:-).
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The CP says, “He revealed he registered his Newport home as his second home, with a property in London as his main address.”
The VB says, “For the lifetime of this Parliament, his main house has always been Newport…..”
Am I being obtuse or are these two statements at odds with each other? I’m sure someone will tell me.
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Not obtuse, facts is facts. We got it the wrong way around. Now corrected. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Thanks Simon.
Generally
I can see no problems in his statement (number of nights etc., being within the rules) but isn’t this exactly what the Telegraph, Mail, BBC have been calling “flipping” all be it marginal flipping or perhaps tending towards a flip.
I can’t see problems if the rules have been complied with as I am sure they will have been here but so have many others, complied, who have been shammed in the media.
So the rules are wrong but at least there are rules and I would guess that the numbers who are grossly flipping are very few. Surely the rules can be re-drafted without all this fuss. Or perhaps it is just too close to an election.
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No, this is not so called flipping. Flipping is where parliamentarians confuse their job with being a property developer going from one ‘second home’ to the next and doing the developing at our expense. They then tell the tax man it is their primary property, thereby evading tax. It’s a double wammy.
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“just too close to an election.”
Which one? The EU, the council or a possible general one?
I was rather amused this afternoon to hear Uncle Gordon rule out a snap general election as he maintained that the Tories would make a hash of things! I’m not sure he thought that one through…
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Better the Devil you know! Far too many Toffs and Trade Unionist. Cameron in, and within three months
everyone will regret it, and there is no turning back for four years. However, before then we could have a revolution.
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There surely is only one reason his second home
is now Newport, that’s because he wants to make sure he gets as much as possible in expenses. Sadly all MP’s are at it, some worse than others.
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Wow! You are determined to tarnish his reputation aren’t you, regardless of the facts which have been clearly laid out in this blog. Andrew Turner did not by any stretch of the imagination claim all the expenses he could. He did campaign for changes to the system and freedom of this information long before this blew up in parliaments face. Perhaps you might consider that Andrew Turner is an actual person like you. I doubt if you would want some disempowered twit on the internet talking in such a derogatory way about you without actually being informed of the salient facts.
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What the hell’s the matter with you big ears? Of all derogetory remarks on this blog about our wonderful Mr Turner you pick on mine to be abusive. Firstly I was not saying anything other than the facts by claiming his island home is his 2nd home he will get more, fact. In his own statement he clearly felt uncomfortable with it because he was suggesting he would have changed back but thought his claim lasted for the duration of the parliament, fact. As I said some are at it worse than others, he as it happens is one of the better MP’s, who I’ve met on many occasions. Lowering yourself to name calling is pathetic. Try to accept Big Ears that everyone is entitled to their opinion and if it differs with your’s so what , who says your right all the time?
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When Andrew retires, and he will one day. He will own a property in London and two properties on the IoW. How can this be justified?
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I do wish contributors to this thread would have the courage to give their names. For example ‘Big Ears’ I suspect could be… A person with a personal interest in avoiding true transparency.
Even a ‘post’ from the MPs office could have been written by anyone. Time to be up-front and stop hiding behind non de plumes.
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Poor old Andrew! Caught up in the scandal of so many dodgy and absent minded Mp’s. Is it any wonder so many good ones want to quit? The intrusion and laying bare of anyones finances is quite a big ask.
Yes name and shame the dodgy characters, but it’s clear Mr Turner isn’t one of them. For instance he paid for his own kitchen (!) and not a penny claimed for food, I see Nick Clegg was claiming the maximum amount. I for one am glad we haven’t been paying £100 a week to feed our Mp even if it was his ‘right’ to claim.
As for the expenses, surely if the rule is to declare your ‘home’ as the place you spend the most nights his London flat must be his home? It isn’t fair to blame him for following the guidelines to the letter.
Most people think Andrew Turner is a hard working honest man doing his best to represent Britain’s biggest constituency. Only time will tell if islanders wish to punish him because of wrongdoing by other Mp’s. If they do it will be very unfair.
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Wow am I agreeing with The Doc????? Where are my tablets!!
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Poor old Andrew. Don’t make me laugh. In the same year this spectacularly useless MP claimed £137,000 in expense, my old mum, suffering form cancer of the spine, died while waiting for a grant of £6,000 to make her bathroom more accessible. Turner, like all his kind, are taking the mickey, and the sooner he’s out of a job, the better.
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If you agree with the Doc. you certainly need some form of medication:-)
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He will not be punished, he already has egg on his face; others have let him down. People will not vote because our politicians have lost all credibility. Labour, Tory or any of the others, they are all the same.
Mark my words, if more become unemployed, the crime rate will rise, unions will start to disrupt and there will be rioting.
We need a complete clear out at Westminster.
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The sad part about this is that MPs will be smeared by misunderstanding which will no doubt be reflected in voting results and influencing others. I do wish people would make sure they fully understand the facts before making a misjudgement and acting on it because its somehow the thing to do to be seen to making negative accusations and spinning everything.
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Janet,
Who do you work for?
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Why do you need to know? Ah ha, you think I work for Andrew Turner? Call Andrew Turner’s office and ask for Janet if you are so intrigued.
I dont work for anyone, now.
To the person who stated they wished Janet would try living on benefits. I have! I know all about it.
I have also educated myself whilst working, that’s studying whilst working in case you need it clarified.
I receive a state pension and I have to live on it as well as paying my mortgage otherwise I would be homeless. Now is that sufficient hardship to meet your scrutiny? Try living on a bowl of rice a day.
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Janet,
I asked who you worked for, it was you who made mention of our MP. You do very well to pay your mortgage, just being on the state pension, I do not know how you manage. However, it would be nice for you if you had the mortgage paid for you by the tax payer; but I take it you’re not an MP.
Conway; Sorry Janet I should have given him his full title: ‘The (Honourable) Derek Conway MP for Old Bexley and Sidcup.’ You must have heard of him Janet.
Yes! ‘The (Honourable) Derek Conway MP for Old Bexley and Sidcup.’ Brought the issue to light, I shall not bore you with all the dishonest details. You say we can do nothing about it. I disagree, we must never let them forget that we know. I want to see some heads roll.
Mr Cameron and Brown have been telling us how they are going to change the things for the better. One of the first things Mr Cameron is going to do is bring back fox hunting. Now that’s what I call a top priority:-)
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Andrew Turner, unlike many other MPs does not say he ‘claimed within the rules’, he says he did not understand the rules on second home claims, believing there could be no redesignation during the lifetime of a parliament (see County Press). More openness would be welcome – information about his main residence in London, why he needed to claim for repairs and maintenance at the taxpayers’ expense and why he was slow to disclose (see letter in County Press. In the present climate it’s perfectly fair to seek maximum disclosure. And if he wants to be truly open then show the expenses that pre-date the freedom of information request.
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Why does Andrew Turner need to buy a home on the Island (and then claim for it) when he and his partner have a flat they could live in? If he lived in the flat it would save the tax payer a lot of money! It is obviously a way of ‘cashing’ in’ and, while I appreciate he does work hard for the Island, he is still ‘cashing in’ at our expense.
I was going to vote conservative for the first time ever but now have second thoughts.
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Having written before I dont think any one would blame a claim whilst suffering from a life threatening claim. Let those without weakness cast the first stone. There are too many people claiming benefits when they shouldnt be to say they are made of better stuff.
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But if you claim benefits by fraud or you forget or you do not understand the rules you are prosecuted.
Not one MP has been prosecuted – not one! And many have been guilty of fraud; you do not need to be a lawyer to fathom that out.
And remember, members of the House of Lords are doing the same things.
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Janet, Yes there are benefit cheats but unlike MPs
if they are found out they will be prosecuted.
Take Conway MP for example, he’s still an MP, still receiving his allowances and expenses and when he quits or loses his seat he will receive a pension of £32,000 a year. Would a benefit cheat be rewarded so generously?
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The serious “offenders” who have been blatantly obtaining capital by deceit should face very serious consequences.
However, by carrying out localised witch hunts we are in danger of casting into the same league as their dishonest and fraudulent colleagues, those decent, hard working members who claimed more modest “authorised “expenses.
I don’t see any positive mileage in further frenzied national witch hunting over this issue. Yes, of course, the public has a right to know but this has been going on, the bomb went off, it has come out in the open ,heads are already rolling and measures are being taken to prevent re occurrences. By carrying on squeezing the issue as tightly as possible, we’ll permanently damage the rest of the system. Whilst I’m sure they’ve never worried about me I could quite understand the more upstanding folk at Westminster becoming despondent.
It has been a cross-party issue so general partisan fire lighting is extinguished at ignition. Therefore it should be halted, a line drawn in the sand and move on.
An election wouldn’t go amiss. (Not until Uncle Nick has swapped his worktops for Ikea though. Have a word Jill.)
Perspective wise, supposedly, you are never more than 20 feet away from a furry friend. This rule can also be generalised towards benefit cheats who cost the UK 2 billion a year.
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andrew’s account is fair IMHO.
i’m impressed that he travels second class – if i were an elected MP i’d want a special pullman train reserved for me and permanently stationed outside portsmouth with a retinue of on-board servants ready and willing to pander to my every desire.
seriously – this expenses farrago is being over-egged IMHO.
i agree with stephen fry – http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-12560.html#
i think a more legitimate criticism of MPs could be made regarding their lack of intellectual rigour.
a lot of them seem dozy in the extreme!!
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Yes! Dozy – Yet most of them are millionaires.
And when Andrew has his three properties valued he also will be a millionaire.
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I respect Stephen Fry immensely but having read to the foot of his article I saw links to other pages with headlines about MPs expenses, I fail to see what relevance there is in reporting about MPs who are gay who have got their sums wrong.
I do feel that it is about time someone take a responsible attitude and moved to getting it resolved without any more tit for tat argument.
Those who have been found not have their books in order irrespective of their politics ought to be dealt with by the Commissioners for Inland Revenue.
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pink news is a gay news web site – i guess that’s why they were interested in gay MPs in exactly the same way an angling news web site would presumably be interested in tracking any angling MPs – and lijkewise with any other special interest groups.
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Strange that the home in newport is listed as his second home, my front door looks over to his front door and he’s always there.
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Deneo: We’ve only got your word for what you say.
Now, vote as you will, its your right. Be honest and truthful and accept the findings of the Inland Revenue. Dont smear because the journalists are suggesting what they cant prove. When all this is over and members of the British public are still claiming benefits when they have no right to do so, as they have done for a very long time, what part will you play in bringing them down I wonder?
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Yes you have my word on it madam…
And by the way are you the Andrew Turner gatekeeper???
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To be honest i wont be voting at all..
All governments claim to do this or that when they get into power but its the same old “New World Order” agenda..
The bankers run the country..not MP’s..
The times are gone that people believe in politics and politicians and what power they really have.
There is no such thing as politics, its just a big game show for the sheep to play..
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For you janet..
You said what part would i play in bringing down the people that claim benefits that have no right to do so..
Well let me ask you this?
When you were born your parents were told they must register you..”Must” also means “may”..anyway when you were given a birth cert the govenment then trade it on the market for loans..
do you agree with this? being bonded into debt at birth?
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Well now, since you ask about when I was born: No, the Registrar rushed into the room and asked for a name in case my mother and I did not survive.
I’m not sure quite where you are coming from about my birth certificate being traded for loans. I will give you a bit more information about me: I have an Identity Card! Now, how ’bout that?!
It’s for you to do what you will with your life. As for me I studied whilst I was at work so that I would be able to pay my mortgage.
There was a time when the Bank of England was controlled by the government but Tony Blair gave the Bank of England its independence.
If you vote you have the right to complain about politicians. If you dont exercise that right you relinquish much.
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You see you know nothing of the real world janet, you dont even understand the birth cert scam and how we are born into debt.
You made me laugh with your quote on: “If i dont vote i dont have the right to complain” ha ha ha.
And you have an Identity Card, all that means is that you dont care much about your human rights.
Go here Janet http://www.tpuc.org and read about the real world..you might even learn something..
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Irrelevant to Andrew Turner and the expenses situation.
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Well your whole thread to me is nothing about Mr Turner Janet..Are you running out of smart one liners?
Thought so..run along now and play with someone else that doesnt know the score…
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programme on radio 4 last night.
Last broadcast yesterday, 20:00 on BBC Radio 4.
Sunday, 21:30 on BBC Radio 4
Synopsis
Simon Cox gets behind the headlines engulfing MPs about their expenses and explores how the system of allowances was allowed to get out of control. The programme charts the origin of the row back to the enactment of freedom of information laws and reveals how proposed changes, which could have averted the crisis, were repeatedly thwarted by MPs themselves.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00kk0xr
———-
all these expenses issues strike me as trivial and peripheral to the real problems facing britain.
there’s nothing worse than the great british public parading their sanctimony as if they themselves lived lives of impeccable probity.
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“there’s nothing worse than the great british public parading their sanctimony as if they themselves lived lives of impeccable probity”
Well said. Reversing the spotlight onto a few newspaper proprietors might be revealing, too!
(The owners of the Telegraph, the Barclay Brothers, are famous for avoiding tax, as is Rupert Murdoch, of course.)
WRT the MP’s, I think enough is enough. We are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I am satisfied that the majority, including Andrew Turner, have behaved honourably and those who haven’t have mostly fallen on their swords. Time to move on – it’s not as if the country doesn’t still need governing!
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Similarly as I referrred earlier, the British benefit claiming public is not so squeaky clean.
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For some reason you keep harping on about the british public claiming benefits..Do i smell “Common Purpose” in motion…
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smells like teen delusion….
Janets point is that none of us are without ‘sin’ and as JP says, this all needs to blow over very quickly so we can all get back to doing what we do best…creating another scapegoat for another crime, real or imaginary..whose next on the conspirital conveyor belt. hahahhahah
There is no point in playing with someone who knows the score…because they don’t really know…only think they do, but they make very boring team members.
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Agreed, go back to curtain twitching..you may hit pay dirt and the friendly neighbourhood scapegoat kicks your milk bottles over.
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Janet,
You state that you pay your mortgage and you only receive the state pension – May I respectfully suggest that you seek advice from the CAB or Help the Aged. I am positive you will be entitled to some form of social benefit – then you may enjoy a bit of fish with the rice:-)
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and another further update
I would have thought that the amount he paid his staff, they would all be very highly qualified and not require NVQ’s
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Considering the sometimes highly confidential and sensitive nature of the work that some constituents take to a Member of Parliament would require office staff who are not the average secretary. £27,000 including travelling expenses is not excessive I would have thought.
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Not if you compare it to the exorbitant amount of money earned by Mr Beynon! For what exactly?
Andrew Turner has, it seems to me claimed for the things he is allowed to claim for and not for items such as food or expensive household equiptment like some, can we get back to voting for our MP on the most decent man we have up for election, in my book this puts Mr Turner in first place!
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Doesn’t get my vote..but a thoroughly nice chap ( if a tad in-effective)
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I just hope that we have some guarantee that if this happens in the future we have protections in law ensuring MPs accountability – lets have a recall law in the UK that allows the people to call for a new vote when an MP has broken their trust.
http://www.38degrees.org.uk/page/s/recall/
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I agree 100% – This would go a long way in ensuring they act within the rules – Hear we go again – They always act within the rules. And when they don’t they say it was an oversight, ” Sorry, I’ll pay it back”‘ ” Fair cop! I’ll stand down at the next General Election and draw my £32,000 a year pension. And before I go I’ll fit in a few more Jollies to the Far East and Florida for my
wife/partner and I.
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I think we have to insist that who ever is responsible for approving or not approving MPs claims for expenses knows that they have to do their job properly in the first place!
Secondly, the Commissioners of Inland Revenue have remedies for fraud.
We ought to be able to have a trust in them all.
Otherwise of course we exercise our democratic right not to vote for them again.
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Janet wrote[The Commissioners of Inland Revenue have remedies for fraud.]
What remedies have they taken to date, especially in regard to Conway MP?
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Conway? Is that a person’s name or a place? Conway in North Wales perhaps?
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Janet,
Yes! Conway is in North Wales, but I did write ‘Conway MP’ and that is not in North Wales.
Ask ‘Jeeves’ I may be wrong.
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Conwy :)
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ok, so why is it that MP’s are allowed to claim £92.30 per week for food when the same government states that for the purposes of benefits eg jobseekers allowance and income support, claimants only need £65 (ish) per week to live on and out of this they must pay all utilities, food, tv license, run a car, clothe themselves… the list goes on.
bloody hipocrisy.
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The MP is a servant of the public and run up expenses in the course of their day to day work. The level of benefits an individual person is allowed is that which just covers a person to be able to live from day to day either because they are sick or they are at home without a job. That’s the difference. Benefits are not paid so that someone has a standard of living where they might consider not getting a job at all. That would be outrageous wouldnt it.
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The MPs are already being paid an ample wage, I agree that getting £92.30 on top of that for food allowance is ludicrous, and milking the system.
You appear to be suggesting that being sick or unable to secure work (174 vacancies in total on the island) makes you a second class citizen who deserves to struggle for existence.
I notice the ease with which MPs describe the unemployed as “sponging off society” when it suits them to do so. Yet are these people not claiming benefits they are fully entitled to?
There happens to be very rigorous system in place, which often treats you as a pariah for being in the position of seeking employment, to check that you qualify for benefits you claiming.
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We must be grateful to the MOLE and the Daily Telegraph for bringing these fiddles into the public domain – Otherwise they would have carried on cheating ‘Within the Rules’ of course and getting more greedy.
We need a complete clear out because the majority are tarnished, All three party leaders have had their noses in the trough, so for them to criticize
other cheats amongst their ranks make them hypocrites of the highest order.
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As Parkes Browne said, “A little on the side”.
This is what over claiming on expenses is all about.
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I wish Janet would try living on benefits, she would soon change her views and maybe her political party.
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You assume that’s the problem. You and others keep dig dig digging away at this topic which should have been laid to rest a long time ago. It surfaced in May 2009 for the sake of accuracy. You could put your energies to better use. Why keep on about it when you cant do anything about it.
MPs expenses were submitted for payment and if they were paid they were legitimate. If they werent legitimate because the rules of MPs expenses were ambiguous there’s nothing Andrew Turner can do about it.
I suspect you and others posting here 4 months after the fact would have done the same.
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With our democracy in crisis; how can the Prime Minister send unelected people to the House of Lords; namely: Peter Mandelson, Mr Alan Sugar and recently resigned (how convenient) MEP Mrs Glynis Kinnock?
Now Mr Cameron (If he becomes PM) is to appoint an unelected retired army general to become a Peer; who will no doubt soon become a minister. Lucky them; they are now all boarding a new gravy train.
It is reported that Mr Cameron is taking the high ground – pity he did not take the high ground with (Honourable) MP Conway, that was a great error of judgement on his part or was he worrying about his own claims?
Remember, Mr Cameron is a multi-millionaire with a mortgage: A MULTI_MILLIONAIRE with a mortgage!
Why are the police not bringing the guilty to the courts? Could it be that the ‘Top Cops’ are in line for knighthoods or Peerages?
I am afraid things will get worse – It is not all the fault of the PM, he did not sign all the receipts; each MP will have to take full responsibility for his or her own actions.
How Ruth Kelly (Labour MP for Bolton West) has avoided prosecution? Well I do – It would lead to dozens of prosecutions. The easy way out for them all is to stand down at the next General election for family reasons:-)
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Questions all right but hardly relevant to the subject heading. Wouldnt it be a good idea to change the subject heading because your post might get more responses if you do.
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Janet,
I telephoned the office and surprise, surprise. A young lady answered, “Hello! This is Janet, can I help?” :-)
I am not interested in responses, only the ones from you make it all worth while:-)
I admit I am guilty of encouraging debate, however, isn’t debate why forums exist?
PS: no mention of **s.
Did you contact the CAB?
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Whether or not Andrew Turner has someone working for him with the same name as mine is irrelevant. I do not work for Andrew Turner.
I do not appreciate my name being dragged into this Forum after 4 months to stir this topic, as it was five days ago, assuming that I had not claimed benefits in my life. You also make other assumptions which have not been relevant nor appropriate.
As someone else said months ago, the subject of Andrew’s expenses ought to have “blown over”. If you did some research it would work to enhance the purpose of the forum.
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Please Janet read the news or listen to the news on TV – The MPs expenses saga is just beginning; and rightly so.
Janet at the office, was a joke, i did not expect you to take it seriously.
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It has been reported that at least 325 MPs will be ordered this week to repay money or provide further details of their parliamentary allowances by the head of an official inquiry into the Commons expenses scandal. There will be envelopes on their desks this Monday morning.
About time! Will there be any prosecutions?
It was reported in the (CP 09.10.09) that an IoW woman who cheated the social out of £1000s faces imprisonment, and deservedly so. Will MPs receive the same justice? Pigs can fly!
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Don, Perhaps it would be sensible to wait until we see who has the letters tomorrow and what action is proposed.
Have you left the Council’s forum?
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No I have not left the IoW Council Forum, if I left who else would be left? :-) :-)
The main reason I do not ‘Post’ as often is for two reasons.
1 The ‘Posts’ take far too long to be moderated and published.
2. Just like the CP the IoW Council Forum is very reluctant to allow discussion on politics. The CP (as you must be aware) is more right-wing than Sir Stanley Mathews:-)
Considering what the island MP spends with the CP for his printing etceteras, I am not surprised the CP and the MP are good friends:-)
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I too gave up on the Councils forum about the time that they changed to the new system…it was bad, then became worse
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Your comment: Considering what the island MP spends with the CP for his printing etceteras, I am not surprised the CP and the MP are good friends:-)
I suspect you would be the first to criticise any MP who makes an enemy of the Local Press. You cant have it both ways!
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Sorry LP I got carried away with my comments on the Forum question you asked.
Envelopes on the desks – Just more time wasting. I note, already one senior MP is complaining about whether if it’s all lawful, (within the brief.) They’ll drag it on, until they hope that all is forgotten.
I honestly believe that just, maybe, a couple of heads will roll. Most of the big time cheats, and there are many, will or have already announced that they will not seek re-election at the next General Election – however, none of these will lose their very generous pensions.
Crime does not pay:-)
MEPs expenses are next on the agenda, mark my words. The suspect shredders have been in continual motion for months now. I do not jest.
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Yesterday Janet wrote [As someone else said months ago, the subject of Andrew’s expenses ought to have “blown over”. If you did some research it would work to enhance the purpose of the forum.]
Then today Janet writes[As to your advice to me, once again, to say “Please Janet read the news……….” I had already seen that news, and it was precisely why I stated “If you did some research it would work to enhance the purpose of the forum.”
‘Blown over’? Stone the crows.
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I note what you say. I didnt seriously think you would phone Andrew Turner’s office.
As to your advice to me, once again, to say “Please Janet read the news……….” I had already seen that news, and it was precisely why I stated “If you did some research it would work to enhance the purpose of the forum.”
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What the Standards Commission said about Jaqui Smith:
“She should have exercised the discretion given in the rules to identify the residence she shared with her family in her constituency as her main home ”
Surely same should be said for AT
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The government’s Fees Office pays the expenses. They should not have approved them if they were not legitimate. It is not necessarily the MPs’ fault if invoices were approved that should not have been. There’s a great deal of information out there to find instead of hot air. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/12/mps-expenses-concern
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That is actually glossing over the fact that the Commission expected the MP’s to ‘act with discretion’..possibly expecting MP’s to actually have morals.
You are quite correct, because it proved they have no morals
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I disagree. Anyone who is entitled to claim expenses at their place of work submits the claim for approval. Some one is employed to do the job of approving them, or rejecting them. The Fees Office of the Government approved them. There was written legislation about what fees the MPs could claim. The legislation was not written clearly, it happens when Law is written. It has to be “read” and its the Readers whose interpretation of written law often get things wrong. Its why there is so much law on the statute books nowadays. The Fees Officer was ultimately to blame for actually paying the expenses that were claimed because the MP thought they could claim. I will agree the expenses we have been given to understand that have been settled have been downright ridiculous but they should never have been paid. Let not any one off the hook if you really want blood if your own thought processes are not equally flawed!
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irrelevent…MP’s were expected to use their discretion…..obviously the rules were written by an idiot.
All the MP’s did was try to prove they had no discretion.
All your posts are proving is that MP’s manipulated a loophole to their benefit and that loophole was an expectation that Mp’s would be honest
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Janet get real – Many MPs have acted dishonestly.
If you can’t see this you’re blind.
Rules are rules I agree, however, if you place your hand into fire you will get burned.
Plain and simple; many MPs and yes! MEPs, have just thought they could all get away with it.
None of the three main party leaders are fit for purpose and this reflects on why our once great country… It has gone to the dogs.
If you can’t trust MPs, just who can you trust?
They are all going to get off Scot free.
We need a new breed of representatives, ones who are not tied to the apron stings of a party machine.
Are there any good, honest, independent candidates out there? We need a fresh start.
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And all you are doing is failing to consider what a reader might have to say and to look at whole story for the purposes of a healthy debate. In so doing you are having your readers believe you are holier than thou and wouldnt have been caught in anything like.
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One final comment: Had I been guilty of fraud, I would have expected to have been punished.
No more ‘Ping Pong Janet.
21-5 – 21-2 Game over. I win:-)
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That’s the problem as far as I can see it. You are only prepared to listen to yourself rather than encourage healthy debate. Game over for your purposes, I’m out of here. LOL.
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I’ll have the last word then…If Jaqui Smith is going to apologise for ‘following the rules’ but showing little discretion…thenI will expect to read about Andrew Turners apology to the electorate of the Isle of Wight who paid for his unfair dismissal payout, his life classes for staff and wrapping paper…and lets not forget, for not declaring his actual home in his constituancy as his first home…exactly like…………..Jaqui Smith
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I wish this issue would go away, but it is the MPs themselves who are dragging their heals.
Pay up and apologise is not good enough. Cheats should not be seen to prosper.
Jaqui Smith punitive punishment meted out by a committee of just five labour MPs and one Tory MP. Their punishment! ‘Apologise to the House’. She did apologise to the House (full of other cheats) then took her seat as if nothing had ever happened.
She, along with many MPs on all sides. are guilty of fraud and should be prosecuted by British law.
Can anyone guilty of fraud in future just apologise and retain their ill-gotten gains? What precedent does this set?
It is a very sad reflection on our democracy and we need a complete clear out – Regretfully, this issue will just not go away. It must not be allowed to do so.
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What do you think of the proposed new rules Don.
I completely agree with all of them…only a shame they can’t be implemented immediately.
Our MP seems a bit worried that his girlfriend may loose her job, but thems the shakes.
(she could take him to an industrial tribunal for unfair dismissal – I wonder if he would try to claim back THAT expense)
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Yes! The expenses fiddle continues – No prosecutions and now they are going to start winging about the recommended changes.
One of my sons was recently given three days notice to quit his job – MPs family members will have five years to serve their notices – I wish everyone could be guaranteed five years work.
The saga will continue for years.
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Already there are MPs winging about the leaked Kelly report. Harriet Harman (Lab), said she thought it was unfair on MPs wife’s and family members to lose their employment, how does she think the rest of the people feel who are losing not only their jobs, but their homes?
And the poor wife’s and families of MPs have five years to sort things out. That in real terms, means guaranteed employment for five years; then, some say they will, at the end of that five year period sue their employers (MPs) for unfair dismissal. However, this will not wash, because these positions were never advertised, they were in effect, family perks.
I shall continue to try and keep the MPs scandals in the public domain, unless those at Westminster do what is needed, bring the guilty to book.
Next on the agenda should be MEPs and the ‘Top Cats’ the local public employees, some on over £3000 a week – What a very sad, unjust state of affairs.
I do so hope that our MP Andrew Turner will vote in favour of the Kelly report in its entirety; I would expect nothing less.
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David Curry, (Tory) the MP who heads the committee responsible for policing Commons expenses, has claimed almost £30,000 for a second home that his wife has banned him from staying in.
What chance have we got to put an end to this corruption?
All MPs should – but they won’t – Hang their heads in shame.
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Driver 57. Wrote on the ‘Turbine’ thread.
As Pete rightly wrote. You should use the correct ‘Thread’.
You must be in the know if you are aware of the MPs holiday arrangements; I can’t compete with that. However, you should direct your criticisms through ‘Letters to the Editor’ of the CP’. You do realize that you would have to give your name and address, (no nom de plumes). I do so hope that you have the courage of your conviction.
I would just point out that if you think (£19.000
a year) plus all the freebies is inadequate, I do feel it time that you lived in the real world;
also remember that both receive salaries.
I look forward to reading your letter in the CP:-)
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Schadenfreude? No just very sad that our MP has
had to apologise again – Will there be more
revelation, more errors and more apologies?
Time will tell.
Time to take stock Andrew; time to reorganize.
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The County press didn’t publish my letter. Maybe you’re in the know there?
As for £19,000 a year, a relative of mine (age 23) just started work as a teacher. Her pay is £24,000 a year and that’s just for starters! If that’s the going rate for a new inexperienced teacher then Mr Turner’s partner would seem to me to be a bargain.
I note you still seem to be smearing him. WHo have you voted for in past elections?
The Mp’s expense claims have been examined in detail going back five years. If the best you can do is ask about a headboard then my guess is Turner is clean.
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Driver 57,
I do not make the news – I do not make mistakes in my accounts – I do not employ an accountant.
A teacher, inexperience, is qualified to teach.
(Perhaps! A degree in at least one subject.)
And whilst only conjecture, the teacher is far more qualified than most MPs Aides. Teachers, also undertake years of study and they fully deserve all they get; with very few perks!
I am not smearing anyone; our MPs are quite capable of doing that for themselves.
Who do I vote for? Well, I vote for the person and not the party; if there are no candidates that I feel suitable, which is usually the case, I do not vote.
I suggest that you keep submitting your letters to the CP, I am sure the editor will consider your letters, and if they meet the required standard, they may get published.
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Driver 57,
Obviously you do not keep up with the hews. I think you should rewrite your recent ‘Post’ above.
My Post beginning (Schadenfreude?) was written after I had been made aware of today’s news.
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Thank you Andrew for your Xmas greetings by email – A belated Merry Xmas to you and yours.
I think it a very practical and economical way of communicating. If this method was adopted by all MPs and Peers it would safe £1000s in postage costs,
especially, when the costs of postage stamps are being increased yet again.
Happy 2010 to you and your staff.
We must always agree to disagree.
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Andrew Turner MP recently wrote:
quote[The amounts being spent by unelected quangos alone represent over £3,500 per Island household. These bodies make decisions that profoundly affect the lives of Islanders, yet they have no democratic mandate or accountability. If we don’t like their decisions we cannot vote them out.]
unquote.
Is this not the same for the members of the House of Lords? All appointed and none elected.
Peter (I’m in charge) Mandelson, Alan Sugar, Glynis Kinnock; do they not form part of an unelected quango? If we don’t like their decisions we cannot vote them out and who voted them in?
It is high time that they all got the order of the boot.
We must never forget the Right (? Honourable)
Mr Martin.
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It has been reported that over 200 MPs are refusing to pay back what they have
been ordered to do so by Sir Thomas Legg.
Some are discretely trying to find loopholes in the law just to wriggle out of paying.
When will this sleazy scandal end? It will end, just has soon as the rot has been cut from the apple; when they all pay their full dues and admit their guilt or their forgetfulness:-)
To his credit, our MP Andrew Turner, has always paid up when irregularities have come to light.
If it was you or me, who had been ordered to pay, we would be given one or more of the following options:
Refer the case to a court, which would have the power to increase the debt by 50%.
Issue a court judgement to restrict us from obtaining credit, loans and even a mortgage.
Issue us with a distress warrant and seize goods.
A court order could be issued to clamp your vehicle.
Obviously you would have several days to appeal:-)
Laws for us and laws for them; it’s always been like that. Still not one prosecution and ex Home Secretary (Miss J Smith) is being elevated to the House of Lords. She will be in good company with Martin and Archer.
The Honourable House is becoming more like Parkhurst every day.
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http://www.backtheban.com
I know Andrew will not sign up, but I would be very grateful if he would give us his reasons.
Sorry, to stray a little off the thread, but there could be a possible link.
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Now into 2010, and as yet, I note that there has been no prosecutions.
We can’t suspend the guilty ones (It’s within their rules) like local Councils appear to do, or we would have to call a General Election before May, because that would leave a glut of empty seats on both sides of the House;, it would look like Friday afternoon every day of week.
And how would they conduct the business of the house without any party leaders or a Mr Speaker?
And no doubt, all the MPs standing down at the next General Election, for whatever reason, will all be being paid their re-settlement grants; unless!
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“It’s within their rules”
In which case, it is the rules that need changing. Which of us would not take advantage of a generous allowance scheme, if we were lucky enough to enjoy one? A few members (as ever) have spoiled it for the rest by testing it to destruction, but I don’t think our MP is among them.
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But it is they themselves who make the rules and it is, up to now, only them you can change them.
Our MP (or his partner) is guilty of some sloppy book keeping. If this is not the case why is he forever apologising?
It is obvious from media reports, that he was not running a very ‘happy ship’ during one period. Hence the costs to the tax payer of the tribunal case.
I am please to note that one MP is to be deprived of his resettlement allowance – Many more should follow. But where are the police? Are the all queuing for Knighthoods?
How can we have have disgraced members of Parliament still holding office; these same people who help in the making of our laws and most will be organising the next election?
What a farce!
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“why is he forever apologising?”
Because he probably feels a bit uncomfortable about the whole thing, as would we if all our affairs were made public.
Are you really saying that you wouldn’t have claimed your entitlement if you were an MP?
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Sorry – that should have been a reply to Don at 2:39
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I am delighted that the Daily Telegraph informed the public of all the sleaze within our Government. Without this knowledge we would still be being ripped off – Left, right and centre.
Andrew has apologised several times, and this is to his credit, but surely you all know the reasons for his apologies.
May I respectfully suggest, that those newcomers to this ‘Thread’ start at the very beginning; and as Julie Andrews said many times, ” It’s a very good place to start”:-)
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“newcomers”
If you mean me, Don, I think you’ll find me at Comment 2.. :-)
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Yes! Got you logged James P.
I’d like to see more interest being shown in this topic.
Our democracy should be on par with the NHS -The best in the world. Our democracy has been severely tainted by the sleaze and corruption within our Government and that includes ‘That ‘Other place’ the House of Lords.
I feel it’s high time this resting place for ex MPs, Bishops and the like, should be scrapped and a democratically elected chamber formed.
As people become more educated and are thinking for themselves the Bishops are fast losing their flocks. ‘God is good’ – Take the earthquake in Haiti has one example. ‘Nature works in mysterious ways.’
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“As people become more educated”
Are you sure about that? :-)
I’m not sure I dare comment on the rest!
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Help me out here Mr Smith. Are you saying the people of Haiti were let down by God or that the earthquake was God’s way of reducing the population?
As for the Lords, it’s indefensible but seems to work most of the time. Blair said he’d abolish it, then didn’t. The time for it to go has now passed.
The Mp’s know the Lords is their ticket to prosperity in old age. And a good way of keeping the taxpayer cash flowing long after the electorate has ousted them.
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I am an atheist; that is my belief, and I do not want to convert anyone. so I shall not go into why
all the others religious ones want to give them their Gods.
House of Lords is outdated and it’s a pity Blair did not do what he promised. But he has proved to be a real jerk, and a very wealthy one at that.
All people should retire at seventy, unless your a teacher, or work in the public service, then fifty seems the average.
The earthquake was caused by the movement of plates in one of the earth’s faults. Now believe
the scientist or the Bishops; your choice!
Will God put things right in Haiti? I do so hope he can. However, things do not look too good at this time.
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At last Legg concludes his report at a cost of over a £Million and some MPs are still whining. ‘They’ve been found out, pay up’.
The sooner the next General election is over with the better; however, there will still be many familiar faces to be seen in the House, but at least they now know that the public now knows that the majority of MPs have been making dodgy expense claims in the past.
Not just dishonest MPs but a system that was started by Mrs Thatcher many years ago, to repress pay rises for MPs and to allow MPs to make up their short fall in pay through a corrupt expenses system; the majority of MPs got on the band wagon.
The next new Government will not be without many of the old rouges, but at least they know that we know – It will take a decade or two for MPs to gain the full trust of the British electorate.
Will there be any prosecutions? I doubt it very much; birds of a feather stick together.
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Prosecutions at last – I am surprised that the DPP
have had the bottle.
Again they say they are going to deny the charges against them. Can they not just accept that they did wrong.
Appeal vigorously they cry! Who’s going to pay the costs of these appeals?
What about Miss J Smith? Many more appear to have been let off the hook, why? This sordid mess will drag on for decades.
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I not despite the dodgy claims of Mp’s of all parties it’s only LABOUR Mp’s facing prosecution.
Sadly for us the dodgy three no believe parliamentary privelege protects them from the law! You really couldn’t make this up. Caught seemingly bang to rights they now believe they are ABOVE THE LAW! Mr Smith, you should target your efforts at the Labour party and insist that these people are taken to court. The former Home Sec Jackie Smith should join them in my opinion.
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Shobba,
I do agree.
I do feel that Miss J Smith, along with many others should be prosecuted and their golden handshakes, whether they have been sacked or reign should be stopped.
What other criminal would be given a £30.00 farewell gift?
I note that four have been charged, but not one of them has been arrested, fingerprinted or DNA samples taken. Yes! This proves once again the MPs and Peers are above the law.
Ironically, instead of moving on and putting the whole sordid mess behind us they continue to whine and try to riddle – there will be more revelations to come out.
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Sorry; for £30.00 read £30.000.
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Conservative peer Lord Ashcroft: has been votng in the House of Lords, yet does not pay taxes like the rest of us.
His money has been and is still being used to help Tory candidates in marginal seats.
Cameron has known about this tax dodger for ten years and as never said a word on the issue.
It is obvious how Ashcroft became a Peer.
I know there are ‘Non-Doms’ in all of our political parties – Just how more corrupt and sleazy can we become? Is there no end to it all?
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Still waging your one man class war? He may not pay tax like the rest of us (on his overseas earnings) but he sure as hell doesn’t EARN like the rest of us! I think like him, if any of us had substantial overseas income we would take the best advice and that currently is to become a ‘non-dom’ like Ashcroft, Labour and Liberal peers. They are not breaking the law – a law Labour could’ve changed anytime this past 12-13 years if they didn’t like it.
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The fact that he says he will return to ‘Live In’ status and pay taxes like therest of us if the Tories win is enough to make me vote for anybody else
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It is not a class war – It is about honesty and trust. If more people took an interest in these affairs of state, we would not be in this sorry mess.
There are wrongdoers in all parties and no one should be above the law.
Prosecute the lot I hear the lawyers cry, lots of £££££s
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Rewarding people with peerages, other honours and jobs for the boys, with political donations,is immoral, corrupt and does border on criminal (Bribery).
The sooner we get rid of all these practices the better.
When I see the members of the House of Lords in their ermine and fancy dress. I just wonder what do other civilized countries think of us?
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Will they never learn?
Geoff Hoon, Stephen Byers,and Patricia Hewitt suspended from the Labour Party over allegations they tried to sway policy decisions by lobbying the Government.
Byers suggest that £3.000 a day…
These revelation will continue until they have all been replaced.
All golden handouts and pensions should be stopped.
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All of them are leaving parliament. Surely they are allowed to make a living with whatever talents they have? Why pick on these three, Gordon Brown’s enemies, is that just a coincidence?
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Has poor Gordon Brown any friends? Perhaps he was a decent sort of man before he became a politician.
High time that politicians were regulated by an outside independent body; then how long would it be before the regulating body needed to be regulated? Everyone is on the make.
The more I see and listen to David Cameron the more I see a Tony Blair (in blue).
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Not a question of picking on these three.
Reports in today’s press inform us about all the free holidays many have been having to raise ask a question or two, or three…,In the House.
Those three will receive a golden handshake of £30,000 and a pension of at least £16.000 for life.
We should sack the lot and have a fresh start, which I do not think is possible, for everyone is on the make – Our country is as corrupt as any.
MPs should only have one job – The job that they were elected to do – If the pay is not good enough; find one that is: Banking! Perhaps.
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I am informed that Mr Pete Harris (English Pete) is going to stand as an Independent at that next General Election.
If this does materialize, the electorate of the Isle of Wight will at last have someone to vote for, who is a free agent, a genuine Independent, and someone who is not tied to the apron strings of the Trade Unions or the Central Tory Office.
Liberal Democrat then Conservative – Time we broke the sequence; well! You may just get the chance.
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The sooner Mr Brown gives us a date for the next General Election the better.
I’ll wager there will be at least half a dozen
candidates standing as Independents; along with the Greens, Lib/Dems, UKIP, and all the other also rans.
What a complete waste of votes. We want an MP who represents the people of the IoW and not the hierarchy at Central Tory Office or the trade unions.
I for one will be glad when it is all over.
Please note: Both my cataracts have now been replaced and my new prescription specs. are super; so there is no excuses for spelling mistakes, however, I can not promise correct grammar, because, being a Boltonian, I write it as I say it.
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Now that they (MPS) have agreed that they can now retain a family member on their payroll – how long before they start flipping family members?
It is wrong to employ family members together in the public domain; expect more of them to abuse the privilege.
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Hazel Wyld,
How do you know who is the best candidate? Have you seen the list of the others?
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At least us Tax payers will not have to pay for Andrew Turners second home on the Isle of Wight after the next election.Its a start Don.
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I do not understand why they can not house their MP in the big (off) white house where he has his offices – There appears to be many empty rooms –
Although I have noticed since my ‘Post’ on this issue, on another thread, a couple of windows have been furnish with curtains.
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I have now had two meetings with Andrew over the past few month, the last one being on the first of April 2010. Several topics were discussed but all but one will remain confidential at this time.
Andrew Turner MP informed me that if the conservatives form the next government at Westminster, he will vote in favour to repeal the ban on fox hunting. When asked for his reasons he remained silent.
Fox hunting is illegal – It should remain illegal.
Hunters are still enjoying dressing up in scarlet and black and enjoying the pursuit of a rag. It is a well known fact that some hunters ignore the ban; however, if they opt to break the law it informs us just what type of people they are:
Law Breakers.
Horses and men are getting their exercise, they enjoy the chase and the fresh air. And most important of all no animal is ripped to pieces by a snarling pack of hounds.
Recently a top member of the Countryside Alliance said, ‘We must cull the foxes, there are too many of them since the ban was imposed’. What rubbish! – Some hunts are rearing fox cubs, so that there will always be an ample supply, so if the ban is lifted they can continue with their barbaric pastime.
The ban has caused no unemployment, blacksmiths and farriers still have work, so Andrew can you please give your reasons why you would want to allow our countryside to be, once again, the killing fields? I will not hold my breath.
Browse the website of the ‘League Against Cruel Sports’. Then tell me if you feel LACS are fighting a losing cause.
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Unless as I suspect you are fighting a class war not a war on hunting, why does the colour of their clothes matter to you? What that little phrase reveals is your class hatred. It’s never really about Foxy-woxy with you people is it?
As for LACS, I assume you get your claim that hunts are breeding foxes for hunting from them? What nonsense. Where is this evidence?
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Mr Justice Wrote:
Unless as I suspect you are fighting a class war not a war on hunting, why does the colour of their clothes matter to you? What that little phrase reveals is your class hatred. It’s never really about Foxy-woxy with you people is it?
Foxy woxy! That’s not a upper class…Ah well!
Did you want me to describe the people on horseback as being dresses in ‘Black and white’?
I can assure you I have nothing against the ‘Working Class’. It is just a nasty, cruel pastime. ‘Have a browse at, ‘League Against Cruel Sports’ web page. Form your own opinion- Not suitable for children to watch.
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LACS website is not exactly impartial. It certainly isn’t evidence.
I respectfully suggest that a video of an abattoir wouldn’t make great viewing but it’s the price we pay for meat.
On my nocturnal travels I see many sick and injured foxes. Just the other night I watched an old un limping along with a badly injured leg. It’s these animals who are spared from further misery by hunts. A swift kill is better than a poor shot. They are cute but vermin. A pest.
Real country people do not wish to see any animal suffer, even pests like foxes.
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I quite agree, Mr J. We seem to have double standards where animal welfare is concerned – anything is acceptable if you’re going to eat it, but chasing a small predator in its own habitat is verboten, apparently.
I seem to recall that the average lifespan of a fox in the wild is 2-3 years, with or without hunting. For most wild creatures, lives are nasty, brutish and short, but that’s natural selection for you…
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We eat most of the meat that comes out of the
abattoir, less the not permitted offal – the animals feel no pain; well my Sunday roast beef never complains:-)
Fox and chips, do not laugh; the way things will go when the Tory party take over…You’ve been warned.
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How very sad for you…there is video evidence, there are two successful court cases, numerous eye witness accounts.
I grant you that it is not common, but providing man made habitats and encouraging foxes is a fact, even if not widespread.
You live in an imaginary world and have obviously never been to a hunt… the fox is torn to pieces by dogs who are trained to grab for legs and pull…and that after upto 4 hours of being persued….hardly humane
And you fail to point out that hunting foxes is not illegal,only the part with the dogs. People still do hunt foxes and shot them. Foxes are a pest and do need to be controlled…to do so with dogs is AN OUTRIGHT LIE
Now that the ‘bloody trade’ has eneded the attendence of ‘people of lesser class’ has increased andmany more young people progress from pony clubs up to ‘non ritual slaughter’ hunts.
Your whole argument is as spurious as Andrew Turners
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“many more young people progress from pony clubs up to ‘non ritual slaughter’ hunts”
Hardly surprising, when your NRS hunts didn’t exist before!
I’m not a great fan of the dénouement of some hunts, but it’s quick and preferable to the slow lingering death that most foxes endure naturally. How do you think it happens in the wild? Animal get old, injured or infirm and usually starve to death, which isn’t much fun either, but at least they’ve had a life of sorts, which is more than can be said of factory-farmed livestock.
As Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall has pointed out, if supermarkets were obliged to show rolling videos of the conditions in the sheds where their meat was reared, no-one would touch the stuff!
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the two arguments do not go hand in hand at all and can’t see whats to be gained by comparing fox hunting to food production…totally spurious connection.
We don’t hunt cows with dogs and we don’t slaughter foxes for food.
Actually drag hunting has been around for 40 odd years and was always the refuge of the more civilised gentry and those abhoring the bloodlust. The LACS has been promoting them for as long as I can remember (my Teens)_
Foxes are killed by all manner of things in the natural progress of their lives, none more so than by cars…but to suggest that being chased mile after mile and then torn to peices is a preferable death is idiotic…sorry James.
Certainly if we treated our sunday roast in the same way, the ranks of vegatarians would be endless
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No.5
“to suggest that being chased mile after mile and then torn to peices is a preferable death is idiotic”
Really? Only if you’re comparing that with being killed outright by a car which, despite the traffic, is not the way most foxes (or other wild animals) die. Most get injured or infected and suffer a lingering and painful death. Very few die of old age, and even then it’s probably not pleasant.
Anthropomorphising about being torn apart by other animals doesn’t help your case, especially as that’s exactly what foxes like to do to chickens.
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The usual emotive LCAS nonsense. Townies who think they know best. As James says, life in the wild is short and the end often painful. You apply all the wrong moral arguments. I wouldn’t even believe the date on a LACS website, I certainly wouldn’t accept evidence from LACS members in my Court room. Your chasing for four hours quote reveals only your lack of knowledge on the subject. I don’t know of many riders or horses capable of such a thing. Foxes are best managed by country people. The law as it stands is ridiculous and unenforcable. Like all bad law, it should be removed from the statute books.
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As usual Mr Jerker your talking rubbish a pack of out of control dogs chasing a creature not much bigger than a domestic cat and then ripping it to pieces.You are just like the cowardly huntsmen if you want to verbally abuse all and sundry front up.
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you obviously have no clue whatsoever…country folk don’t want your barbaric sport..they want jobs. They where misled by your CA propaganda and lies about job losses and decimation of their communities,
Now this has proved to be lies and they are still in jobs…even more jobs..and you CA has disapeared from whence it came.
Country folk don’t want or need hunting…the Lord of the manor does..and they are the parasites of the countryside.
And I’m no more ‘townie’ than you are.
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The law on the statute books is the democratic response of the majority of these Islands…so suck on that
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Foxes kill chickens for food – the fox appears to kill more than it can eat because the chickens fly and panic and distract the fox.
When I kept chickens I erected a fence, which went 24 inches into the ground, 6 feet high, which was totally fox proof; unless of course it was a flying fox:-)
I never lost a chicken – If I saw a fox hanging around it risked getting shot.
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I have to say that any sympathy I had for the fox went out of the window when I saw the sickening sight of slaughtered hens and lambs caused by them and the fact it wasn`t even a case of taking one and eating it but wholesale senseless slaughter.
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A good farmer or poultry man will ensure that his flock and chickens are protected. I have never seen a farmer on the IoW out at night shooting the foxes – but you will hear shot guns going off during the day, shooting…However, that is a topic for another day.
The fox is a wild animal, so therefore must find its food the best way it can.
Please browse the ‘League Against Cruel Sports’ web page, Then make comment.
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Then shoot the vermin..its what you have gun license for
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well since theres a fox hunting debate going on, I might as well throw something in…
Hunting with dogs has not been banned. Drag hunting is still permitted. The only thing that has changed is that the fox cannot be killed by dogs. I think it would be perfectly acceptable to hunt a fox and then shoot it. At the end of the day, hunting is a neccessity which has turned into a sport for people to have (dubious) fun. I think the sport element should be removed, and I think it has been to a degree by the change in the law, but farmers should be able to go out and shoot a fox. Huntsmen should still be allowed out on horseback for drag hunting. Its simply the act of the dogs ripping apart the fox that has been banned and rightly so. Yes, foxes often rip apart chickens etc, but thats their natural instinct. The dogs have been trained by man to kill the fox. Thats the difference between them, and thats what the law is trying to alter. It would however be nice to see MPs going on a hunt, and participating in anti-hunt activities before making the decision they have. An informed decision is always best made by doing it rather than being told about it.
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Yes! Jon,
You make some fair comments. However I am sick of people calling various activities like hunting with hounds, horse racing and blasting farm bred pheasants with blunderbuss as a sport.
I had a glimpse of the Grand National today and saw jockeys beating their horses with a whips (Crops to the horse lovers). If I whipped a dog or a cat like they do horses I would be prosecuted and rightly so. How many horses have been put down this week?
The Royal House of Windsor should set an example, this import from Bavaria, kills deer, birds, fox etceteras just for fun.
Some are trained soldiers and all they use a gun for is on animals and birds. They do not do trips to South Africa just to see their wenches.
Rise again Oliver Cromwell all is forgiven.
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“Rise again Oliver Cromwell”
An interesting choice. You disapprove of hunting, but massacring the Irish is OK?
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Oliver Cromwell ranks in the worlds most diabolical,genocidal despots.
Charles 2nd did the right thing by digging his body up and hanging it
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Protect my flock said Jesus. Good fencing and a shot gun.
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I met with the candidate from the English Democrat
Party today – Only difference between him and Andrew was the bus.
I must admit it is a great way to get your message across. Maybe you should get two buses Andrew:-)
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James P,
verboten – That could explain a great deal.
There is a great difference between killing for food and killing or fun.
If you kill for food you live -If you kill for fun you are sick in the head.
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“verboten – That could explain a great deal.”
Like what?
Strangely, people who hunt enjoy it just as much when the fox gets away, so to suggest that the killing is the fun bit are missing the point.
That’s probably why it’s called ‘hunting’.
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oh, so the fun is in chasing a terrified animal to a state of exhaustion is it?
Humans do not need to hunt for food in the traditional sense, so it is for the fun of it. What unfeeling creatures these hunters must be. I might be a bit soft, but I think that compassion for animals is a sign of a civilised person.
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Anyway, what’s this got to do with Andrew Turner’s expenses? This thread should be discussed under the election heading.
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Quite right, thank you PC 99
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I will take that as a compliment even if it wasn’t meant as one!
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“I think that compassion for animals is a sign of a civilised person”
I agree, but a sense of proportion places my sympathy towards the millions of pigs, chickens and turkeys raised indoors in crowded and unsanitary conditions and kept alive on cheap, medicated meal until ready for factory processing.
Sort that out and I’ll reconsider the fox issue.
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But we are meat eater. However, I have never seen fox on menu.
When I was in Korea, many years ago, I entered a village and saw them cooking a dog but food was very scarce and I suppose you will eat anything if you are hungry.
Who’s for frog legs?
I wonder if all those renegade MPs have paid their mess bills yet? Just keeping to the topic of the thread.
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Two wrongs make a right then?
I am against fox-hunting with dogs.
I have been inside a chicken shed and seen their conditions and how they are collected for slaughter. I am against that too but at least I can buy a free-range chicken and do something to minimise the suffering.
Just because it is harder to deal with the latter problem does not mean we should do nothing about the former.
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James P ,
I agree and would willingly pay more for my meat and chickens.
Please remember that most of our beef and chicken produce is coming from the continent, even Brazil.
Free range! A shed housing 2000 chickens and they open a small door at each end of the shed – The birds are so confused, they hardly ever go through the doors.
I hate the site of battery produce, however, the house wife wants cheaper food and has no consideration how animals are housed.
They will never be banned because capitalist must make a bigger profit and who are the capitalists?
I will say no more.
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Happy to agree with you there, Don!
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Afrikaner or the Hun lingo, perhaps!
This thread is about Mr Turner MP but because Mr Turner MP supports fox hunting, I feel it is fair game; if you excuse the pun:-)
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Yes Don, it is about Mr Turner, but it’s about his expenses not his voting record or intentions.
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I will move to the election thread Don. It was a compliment!
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Whilst he’s the island’s MP, both are important to me.
I shall be distributing my leaflets in Newport, just as soon as I get then back from the printer.
Ironic printers on the IoW all had too much work on:-)
You must read the content
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I do not pay for my Countryside Alliance membership
myself – I’m not a member; anyway Jeeves would claim it for me:-)
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I aam very sorry, no one more than myself has wandered from the topic.
I shall not refer to fox hunting again on this thread.
Keep it to MPs expenses, because none of the three main parties will make mention of it in their manifestos, nationally or locally.
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Zoiner wrote:
For many years in the Midlands I voted Liberal or Lib/Dems but in ’97 I got so frustrated with our obnoxious toad of a Tory MP that I voted tactically and switched to Labour.
We got a considerate and dedicated MP who worked hard for all his constituents before his death and beat off all the Hooray Henry’s that were parachuted in from the Home Counties by Tory Central Office in the subsequent elections.
It is a no-brainier, the Tories will be a complete disaster and the ONLY effective way of avoiding it will be to vote tactically, which on the IOW means Liberal Democrat.
A very concise and sensible ‘Post’.
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Whoever wins, they will have this to clear up:
http://www.debt-clock.org/
It’s the elephant in the room, and is a lot bigger than the Greek one. We earn more, of course, but for how much longer..?
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James P,
What ever happens we will all be here enjoying a life that is far, far better than many others in the world.
We’ve been here before, a long time ago and not as worse but we will recover.
Who ever wins the election nothing will change for the ‘Top Cat’.
I am pleases that I live in a wonderful country and if all the MPs etceteras are bent – What the hell! Health is wealth.
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I hope you’re right, Don. I love it here, too, but I might pack a bag, just in case.. :-)
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ANDREW TURNER WILL (IF RE-ELECTED)
VOTE TO BRING BACK THE BARBARIC/CRUEL
PASTIME OF FOX-HUNTING BACK TO OUR
PEACEFUL AND TRANQUIL COUNTRYSIDE.
THIS RETROGRADE STEP, MUST NEVER BE
ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.
TELL US WHY YOU WANT TO DO THIS ANDREW?
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We’ll all be hunting our own food if the financial crisis deepens.
Thanks to the last two administrations, who thought that financial dealing was an effective substitute for producing stuff, we now import most of our goods, energy and food. Soon (if not already) we will not be able to afford it.
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When I see members of the ‘Countryside Alliance’
eating fox and chips, I will know there is a crisis:-)
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I saw something the other night about chip shops substituting cheaper fish for cod and still selling it as cod. Maybe they could make Fox Sausages and pass them off as pork? Battered fox and chips, it could be the next big thing.
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Alan Turner, the Conservative Candidate (IoW) at the next General Election will, if the Conservatives win and form the next Government, vote to bring back fox hunting. Why?
I wish he could give me a reason, but he wont or can’t
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why? because the people that vote for him want him to. Politicians have 2 jobs, the first to get into power, the second to stay in power. I think our MP should be randomly selected from the electoral role (according to certain criteria). I think anyone that wants to be a politician should be banned from being one.
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I note that David (The Doc) Holmes is touting for Andrew Turner, could this be the kiss of death?
(Coffins):-)
Read ‘The Doc’ on page 33 in the IoW Gazette. Why he has been allocated half a page to promote one of the candidates I do not know, I feel it is wrong.
All other candidates should request a ‘The Right to Reply, or it would be a ‘Press Complaints’ job for me.
And here’s me thinking. The IoW Gazette. was just for Island People.
David Holmes is far more right wing than ‘Old Etonian’ Cameron himself.
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I would read it, but I have better things to spend 30p on, and I prefer soft toilet paper.
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Of course you feel it is wrong Don, they support the man whereas you despise the party.
Truly, socialism’s very own Alf Garnett ;)
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out of interest, are VB going to interview some of the candidates? They asked us what we wanted to see and a lot of people said interviews… Hope its sooner rather than later.
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Are VB going to interview some of the candidates?
I do not think the top two favourites would want to do so. They may have to tell you things that would lose them votes. Like telling the truth for instance.
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absolutely, so if they refuse an interview VB should report that they have refused. OK, 10 candidates might be a lot to interview, but they should at least try to interview some.
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Of all the candidates that have responded to me. Peter Harris (English Pete) is the only one that has been up-front on the issues that I am interested in.
Andrew Turner remains silent, yet his friends of the Countryside Alliance are working 24/7 to erect all his posters. Blighting the scenic views of our beautiful countryside, surely all this in itself is proof that they just want the countryside for their killing fields once again.
I feel that the Lib/Dems are not putting enough effort into their campaign; the seat is theirs for the taking. I feel that this will be their last chance.
Peter Harris also comes over as a very honest and genuine person, I am warming to his campaign. I do admit to be going off the Lib/Dems, but I am but one voice and one vote.
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“I feel that the Lib/Dems are not putting enough effort into their campaign; the seat is theirs for the taking. I feel that this will be their last chance.”
I totally agree. I want to vote Lib Dem cus i agree with a lot of their policies but they are not making it easy to do that over here.
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Letter the CP Would not Publish.
They say they had no space and could publish it next week – your will see why printing it next week would be a waste of time .
IT WOULD NOT BE RELEVANT THEN.
Subject: [b]Why I Couldn’t Support Andrew Turner – Apologies to Andrew Turner and Miss Carole Dennett[/b]
Letters to the Editor
Dear Editor,
Over the past few months I have met with Andrew Turner on two separate occasions; the last meeting I had was on the 01. 04.10, when his (PA) Miss Carole Dennett was also present.
I have no doubt that Miss Dennett has been a great help to Andrew, but on an annual salary of £19.000, I would not have expected anything less. It has been alleged, letter to The Editor (CP) I had suggested that Andrew Turner and Miss Dennett enjoyed free holidays. Having met with them both on the O1.04.10; I am assured by both Mr Turner and Miss Dennett that this was not the case. I have no reason to doubt this. I therefore, apologize,[b] if I actually wrote this[/b], However, both had the right to reply to my letters and they decided to decline. When I asked them why they had declined, Miss Dennett said they just wanted it all to blow over, or words to that effect.
It is a well documented fact that Miss Dennett was a worker for the Labour Party many years ago, we can all change our political allegiances over time. I also wrote that Miss Dennett worked 24/7, she informs me that this is not correct, but that was the impression that Miss Dennett and Andrew gave me in the correspondence I had received in the past. Again I apologize.
However, Miss Dennett later wrote to me, [b]“I’m sure you will understand that I do work more hours than the 9-5/5 day a week job I am employed in.[/b]
[b]“However, Miss Dennett was employed by a firm of solicitors at the same time as working these long hours for our MP. (FACT)
[/b]
All I ever wanted was open transparency – With all the blackening-out of accounts, apologies over his expenses; I do not feel that the constituents of the Isle of Wight and me have had a fair deal.
Yours Sincerely,
Don Smith Mr
(name, address and phone number submitted)
Footnote: It is obvious the reason the Tory influenced CP stifles debate, on any letter that is critical of the Tory Party – This does place all the other candidates at a disadvantage. It is not democratic.
And why at any of the hosting we have not been able to ask questions from the floor. They have even stopped us from speaking ? Freedom of speech! I’ts a joke.
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YET ANOTHER LETTER THE COUNTY PRESS WOULD NOT PUBLISH (Well not this week anyway)
A LETTER TO THE EDITOR OF THE CP – HE WOULD NOT PUBLISH
Letters to the Editor CP 23.04.10
Dear Editor,
To get a letter published in the CP, that criticizes the Tory party, is an achievement in itself.
Yet, (CP 23.04.10) we read in Miss Charlotte Hofton’s, ‘The View From Here’, what can only be described as a brazen article which starts about the defacing of Tory posters, ridicules the ‘Victim Support Service’ and then goes on to tell readers to give their vote to Mr Alan Turner.
Then, this True Blue Tory; goes on to make remarks
attempting to compare Jill Wareham to Ms Esther Rantzan.
It’s votes that will win the day, not the mention of naked men, and was it these same naked men that
had the moustaches Charlotte? County Press readers, must write letters to the editor to express an opinion.
And how is it that Conservatives can get police to respond to the defacing of their election posters; when some time ago, I could not get a response from the police following a robbery?
Finally Charlotte, your snide remarks about the ‘Victims of Support Service’ were not called for.
I do so hope that you are never in need of their services, then perhaps! You may just change your tune.
Yours sincerely,
Don Smith
(Address and phone number supplied)
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It seems to me that the general level of corruption in local Government and Parliament is due even more of a boost should the tories get in.
With the idea of elected Chief Constables we will soon have our very own Roscue P Coltrain slavishly poodling Pugh(tin). Any thoughts on the most likely candidate?
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You’ve had your say, now it’s all history.
Christ! Another four to five years is a long time.
However, it will not be my worry. You get what you deserve. FINIS.
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