Author: simon
Mashup Map Of BNP Membership Created
Wednesday, 19th November, 2008 at 11:41 am, Isle of Wight
Following up on the release of a BNP membership list that we covered yesterday, here’s an update.
An enterprising young fellow has taken all of the 10k+ postcodes and mashed them up onto a Google map of the UK, showing the distribution of the names on list.
Naturally we went straight to the Island to gave a look and replicate it below. We think the map only has 18 showing, where as there had been 21 on the original list.
Luckily for those on the list (and let’s not forget that the BNP (British National Party) said some of the people on the published list are not members), the location on the markers on the map isn’t accurate. It’s designed more to show the density in areas rather than their exact locations.
Looking at the number of markers on the other side of the water – in Portsmouth and Southampton – the numbers are pretty sobering.
Thanks to the sharp eyed Islander who sent this tip to us.
Related posts:
- Festival First Membership on Sale From 10am
More news from IW Festival HQ about their new Festival... - Skate Mashup In Ryde
In direct competition with the beach soccer match on Saturday... - Christ The King College: Faith School Created Behind Closed Doors
During the day on Monday, a decision was made by... - BNP Members List Shows 21 Isle of Wight Names
The 10,000+ strong membership list of the BNP (British National... - Reader’s Comments Record: BNP, A Popular Debate
It’s amazing what subjects get people talking. Yesterday morning, we...
Email This Story To A Friend
This is supposedly a “free” country. Didn’t we all stand around the cenotaph a few days ago and thank the ranks of the dead for their ultimate sacrifice to give us that freedom? BNP, like it or not, is a legitimate party with a growing membership. Let’s have total openness of people’s affiliations, I say. Let’s print the full names and address’s of all IOW masons, let’s see who the chief Pooh Bar is at the moment. If you are in the masons, the BNP or any other legal group then you shouldn’t be afraid to say so…..in a free country.
(Report comment)
MARY MARY MARY, ISLAM AN THE BMP, BEEN POSTING FLYERS ABOUT THE MUSLIM TAKEOVER? J
(Report comment)
Jay, if you are going to post on here, do try to make sense or it is a waste of time.
Mary is quite right in what she says, our freedom in this country is being eroded rapidly. Many people are concerned for their future, for their children’s and grandchildren’s futures and, if they feel that the only way to protect those futures is to join a legal political party, then they should be free to do so without incurring a witch-hunt.
(Report comment)
Mary and Piglet, yes we do live in a democracy and our parents and grand parents fought a war to keep us free of fascists like the BNP. They are not an ordinary political party and have and no doubt will again use violence and intimidation to further their fascist views.
On the question of the Masons, I am led to believe that the Grand Lodge (HQ) in London maintains an open list of members. This is not true of political parties who keep their membership secret.
(Report comment)
@Mary & Friend of Piglet – it does raise an interesting question of whether the member of the BNP list are embarrassed or perfectly happy about now being public.
With all of the media interest, it’s assumed that BNP membership is a ‘dirty little secret.’
As you say, as the BNP is a legal party there should be no issue with it. You could also assume that if you make the step to financially support the BNP, you’re happy for it to be know that you support their views.
@FoP – Agree with you on the worrying erosion of hard fought rights. When researching the piece last night, I saw that this was one of the areas that the BNP is now focusing. Is this relatively new?
(Report comment)
Of course people should be free to vote and be members of whichever group nthey chose?
Does that extend to paedophiles who have a political wing campaigning for the age of consent being dropped.
Join the BNP…but do not expect to teach our children or police our streets. Their leader is a convicted rascist and many of their mebers are open rascist and criminals.
Don’t forget the BNP arn’t just anti immigrant, anti coloured, anti Jew, they are also anti-gay, anti-abortion,anti-catholic and stand for nothing that makes Britain Great
You make your choices and are branded by them.
To some the BNP are a laughing stock, something to be ignored, to some a threat.
Know a party by its friends…KKK, Le Pen, Eastern European Fascist parties, Stormfront
(Report comment)
I think what Jay means is that recently posters and leaflets have been found on the Island warning of a Muslim takeover. This follows the revelation that the BNP have recently set up an office here (pick a location from the above map) which means they obvioulsy intend to field candidates.
On BNP member is already a councillor…standing under the auspices of Independent Greens
(Report comment)
Simon, if you read what people are saying you will see that what they are afraid of is:
a) Job loss
b) Intimidation
c) Physical attack
Apparently these things do all happen, so I suppose you can see why people would not want their personal details made available to all and sundry, particularly the loonies.
I don’t know if this is a new area or not. What I do know is, as I said, that our freedom is being eroded and this country has a nasty feel about it these days. I must make time to read George Orwell again, just to see if I find it as amusing as I did when I was young. Somehow I think not.
(Report comment)
Mary, Piglet and Earl Grey,
Whilst I agree that we al have a right to freedom of speech to lump the Masons in with the BNP is somewhat harsh and not really comparable. The Masons are an organisation whose primary role is giving. They are, in fact, the second biggest worldwide contributor to charities worldwide. I’m happy to say I am involved with them. BNP are essentially a bunch or racists although ones that are gathering more and more support throughout the country.
(Report comment)
Earl Grey; just took this off the Grand Lodge site:
Freemasonry: An Approach to Life
Is Freemasonry a secret society?
“Freemasonry is not a secret society, but lodge meetings, like meetings of many other social and professional associations, are private occasions open only to members.
Freemasons are encouraged to speak openly about their membership, while remembering that they undertake not to use it for their own or anyone else’s advancement. As members are sometimes the subject of discrimination which may adversely affect their employment or other aspects of their lives, some Freemasons are understandably reticent about discussing their membership. In common with many other national organisations, Grand Lodge neither maintains nor publishes a list of members and will not disclose names or member’s details without their permission.
In circumstances where a conflict of interest might arise or be perceived to exist or when Freemasonry becomes an issue, a Freemason must declare an interest.
The rules and aims of Freemasonry are available to the public. The Masonic Year Book, also available to the public, contains the names of all national office-holders and lists of all lodges with details of their meeting dates and places.
The meeting places and halls used by Freemasons are readily identifiable, are listed in telephone directories and in many areas are used by the local community for activities other than Freemasonry. Freemason’s Hall in London is open to the public and ‘open days’ are held in many provincial centres.
The rituals and ceremonies used by Freemasons to pass on the principles of Freemasonry to new members were first revealed publicly in 1723. They include the traditional forms of recognition used by Freemasons essentially to prove their identity and qualifications when entering a Masonic meeting. These include handshakes which have been much written about and can scarcely be regarded as truly secret today; for medieval Freemasons, they were the equivalent of a ‘pin number’ restricting access only to qualified members.
Many thousands of books have been written on the subject of Freemasonry and are readily available to the general public. Freemasonry offers spokesmen and briefings for the media and provides talks to interested groups on request. Freemasons are proud of their heritage and happy to share it”.
It seems you have been misled about the open list of members of the Masons.
(Report comment)
There is a list available to the authorities if one is required
(Report comment)
Thanks Piglet, obviously my information was out of date on the Mason’s membership list. However certain peoples obsession with Masons does cloud much of the good they do around the world.
Lets be clear that BNP members are not nice people they hold views that the rest of us find at best objectionable and at worse down right evil. See Kj’s posting for the full list of dislikes.
I imagine few members of the mainstream parties would be so embarassed of their membership.
(Report comment)
I’ll bullet point my replies for the sake of brevity:
Jay, Jay, Jay
I do fear the rise of Islam in its militant form. Remind me of the last time we had a fundamentalist Christian bomber or of a Muslim country where Christianity is allowed to be freely practiced (and its not only Muslim countries that stop the free worship of Christianity)
Earl Grey
BNP-fascist? Anne Bishop (life long conservative) was removed by a vote led by Pugh from the conservative party, why? What had she done to deserve this? She refused to support the education bill Pugh presented…Mmmmm democracy at its best? I think not. I’ll judge the BNP when I see democracy closer to home.
Kj
Paedophiles pray on the innocent, adults choose to join BNP. The comparison is there fore a little flawed in my opinion. The question that needs razing is WHY people are joining the BNP if what you say is true? People only turn to the fringes of politics when they feel side lined and ignored. That’s the issue. I feel like a second class citizen in my own country and have for some time and I don’t think I’m alone in this.
Isleofvibe
The Masonic comparison was only drawn as an example of on organisation whose membership is often kept secret. This should not be the case, good luck to them I say. You should be free to do as you wish and say what you want within the law, BNP included.
(Report comment)
Last time we had a Christian fundamentalist bomber? Well how about last Friday’s paper:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/stone-guilty-of-stormont-murder-bid-1018932.html
(Report comment)
Isn’t it true that many Freemasons are in positions of high authority? The movement is full of policemen, judges, councillors etc, etc, people who are in a position to ’scratch backs’ for other Freemasons. While Freemasons”… are encouraged to speak openly about their membership”, how many actually do? Why would they not want to if they are a charitable organisation and nothing more than that to their members? After all, the Rotary Club is a charitable organisation but is not shrouded in secrecy.
While we’re talking secret societies and backscratching, how do you think the EU and government operates? I, for one, am sick of corruption and the ‘gravy train’, and champagne socialists.
(Report comment)
Drone, you are not, in all seriousness, comparing this to 9/11 or London 2005, or Madrid, or Bali? How many more examples do you want?
(Report comment)
People who join the BNP do so for a number of reason
1. A genuine love of their country which they see (wrongly 0r rightly) as going to the dogs. They know nothing of the BNP other than the name and what they hear from the recruitment squad.
2. Similar to the above, but people who are led to beleive that it is a ‘red’ plot to denounce real patriots
3. Those people that are drawn to organisation where the glamour of violence and crime is just beneath the surface
4. Mentally defective people who believe that white is better than black, straight better than gay, christian better than muslim
5. People who wrongly think that it is a route to power in local politics because of 1 & 2 above who often leave the party as asoon as 3 & 4 raise their inevitable head.
Mary..the BNP prey on the innocent too. we are not all gifted with the power of insight and some people buy the stroy sold them by the BNP
The BNP will never achieve anything in this country because the majority will never allow their nasty little party to be in a position to make descisions…so all they will contine to do is spread hate and fear until they implode (not far off) like every extreme party does, like the NF did before them. Already we are seeing alternative extreme right wing parties being formed, England First and the British Peoples Party are just two of their obnocious offspring
(Report comment)
Actually Earl Grey, I’m just a friend of Piglet, not Piglet himself.
(Report comment)
kj, please enlighten me:
2) Please explain what you mean by a ‘red’ plot to denounce true patriots.
3) Please give examples (authenticated).
4) So, according to you, all muslims are mentally defective, as they believe that homosexuals should be put to death and, I think it’s called “kuffars” ie non muslims, are less than human and should be treated as such.
If accusations of racism, violence and crime etc are going to be bandied about with such abandon then justify what you say and it will be given the serious consideration that it deserves.
(Report comment)
BNP propaganda believes that all who oppose it are communists (reds)
I will give you a few of over 300 examples:
Former National Organiser Richard Edmonds was convicted for his part in a vicious bottle attack on a mixed race couple in a pub in East London 1993
BNP supporter Stuart Kerr was sentenced to 12 years imprisonment for firebombing an Asian shop in Chichester, Sussex
BNP leader Nick Griffin was convicted of incitement to racial hatred in April 1998
London nail bomber: David Copeland
The BNP organiser for Waltham Forest, Alan Gould, was convicted of racially abusing people in a pub in 2000
Former BNP member David Copeland was sentenced to six life sentences after planting bombs in London. He wanted to start a race war.
I beleive that anybody who believes such things is mentally defective..whatever their religion or colour.
Some more members for you to consider:
Nick Griffin (party chairman) received a two-year suspended sentence in April 1998 for inciting racial hatred.
Scott McLean (deputy chairman) was filmed in October 2003 giving Nazi salutes and singing racist and pro-Nazi songs at a winter camp organized by Glasgow BNP.
Steve Blake (website editor) ran a nazi book club in the 1990s which sold hardline US nazi titles.
Mark Collett (head of publicity) admitted on a Channel 4 documentary in 2002 that Hitler was his hero, that he found images of saluting Nazi soldiers ‘inspiring’ and that he would prefer to live in Nazi Germany than in today’s Bradford or Oldham. ‘Yes, I am a Nazi sympathiser,’ he told the journalist.
Mark Payne (regional treasurer). In the 1990s Payne ran 14 Words Press (UK), a nazi publishing house that sold books and videos about the US nazi terrorist group, The Order.
Payne even changed his name to Mark Matthews after The Order’s leader Robert Matthews.
Dave Hannam (director of Great White Records) was imprisoned in 2000 for helping to produce and distribute a deeply offensive antisemitic and racist BNP leaflet.
Kevin Scott (North East regional organiser) was convicted in 1993 for hurling a glass at a black customer in a pub.
Nick Cass (Yorkshire regional organiser) took photographs of anti-racist campaigners which later appeared on the Redwatch website, run by the nazi terror group Combat 18.
Colin Smith (South East London organiser) has amassed 17 convictions for burglary, theft, stealing cars, possession of drugs and assaulting a police officer.
Tony Lecomber (Griffin’s chief lieutenant) was convicted in 1985 on five counts for offences under the Explosives Act, including possession of home-made hand-grenades and electronic timing devices. He was sentenced to three years’ imprisonment. In 1991 he received another three-year prison term for unlawful wounding for his part in an attack on a Jewish schoolteacher whom he caught trying to peel off a BNP sticker at an underground station.
Lecomber has a total of 12 convictions. He was the BNP’s group development officer until January 2006 when he publicly resigned after suggesting that the BNP should begin a terrorist campaign against establishment figures promoting immigration.
John Tyndall (founder of the BNP) had six convictions. In 1962 he was jailed for organising a paramilitary group. Four years later, he was sent to prison again for possession of a loaded gun. In 1986, he was convicted of incitement to racial hatred under the Public Order Act and sentenced to 12 months’ imprisonment. He died in July 2005.
(Report comment)
kj, thank you for your comprehensive list. How many of the people you have listed are still involved with the BNP? They may have been thrown out because of their actions? All BNP members and supporters are tarred with the same brush, however good and decent citizens they may be?
There seems to be a bit of a paradox with Muslims and homosexuals. You say that you think anyone believing this is mentally defective but I understand that this is a fundamental part of their religion. So all Muslims are mentally defective for believing their religion but Christians who feel that their religion is better are also mentally defective, even though Christianity is a tolerant religion. Huh?
(Report comment)
kj, I can’t comment on what the BNP believe about Reds under the bed because they have suspended their website and put a temporary one on due to the high volume of traffic at present(apparently the volume is so high that the site could crash).
I was, however, able to look at their manifesto and it all seems eminently sensible to me (no mention of communists at all).
(Report comment)
Thank you kj for posting a large list of BNP criminal activities. This is very useful and informative. I shall await your posting that covers the Lib/Lab/Con convictions, child abuse cases and fraud as listed on the BNP site as of course, as a rounded and informed individual, you will want to give all evidence known. I too think the BNP are unelectable. I think that Britain will continue to have large numbers of immigrants and a multi cultural society as it appears the majority want that as proven by the electoral process. So be it. Of course the BNP do not have the £ to publish their views mass media so we will never know if they could be elected under those circumstances. By your definition even if they did have the £ they are so awful they wouldn’t be elected anyway.
I’m drawn to your quote:
“Don’t forget the BNP aren’t just anti immigrant, anti coloured, anti Jew, they are also anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-catholic and stand for nothing that makes Britain Great”
This leaves me thinking that you must, by definition think that immigration, coloureds (what ever that means) Jews, gays, abortions and Catholics make Britain Great?
I do hope I haven’t got the wrong end of the stick?
(Report comment)
I beleive that a great many are still members…where the list says ex-member or former member is a good recomendation. Collett has actually been promted
Some are good and decent citizens as outlined in No.1 above..just misled
There is no paradox for me…I find no difference in any religion or organisation or person who thinks gays are less than human…
If you want a good paradox..how about this one:
Under Griffin the NF embraced Third Position politics. Becoming known as “political soldiers” NF representatives met with Colonel Gaddafi’s regime through the Libyan People’s Bureau in London, and expressed support for Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini. Griffin and other leading NF figures then took an all-expenses-paid fundraising trip to Libya as guests of the Gaddafi regime.
(Report comment)
These are a few of the words of the convicted racist of the BNP
“Without the White race, nothing matters. [Other right-wing parties] believe that the answer to the race question is integration and a futile attempt to create ‘Black Britons’, while we affirm that non-Whites have no place here at all and will not rest until every last one has left our land.”
” When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate. We have to have a body of trained young men capable of defending our organisation. If people come to crack our heads we will break theirs.”
“I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that 6 million Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the earth is flat… I have reached the conclusion that the ‘extermination’ tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter-day witch-hysteria.”
Now MT and Fof P consider these words are let us know, does this sound like the words of a reasonable man who heads a reasonable party?
(Report comment)
No Christian Fundamentalist bombers? What about the Bush administration then?
(Report comment)
^Corker
(Report comment)
You could always judge the BNP by the opinion of other racist. Stormfront is a website for extreme right wing people and groups and supports ‘Redwatch’ an ilegal(in the UK) site that for years has posted pictures and addresses of ‘commies’ that oppose them. There are many ex-and current BNP members on there who detest Griffin and his dumbed down rascism…I’ll not post the links..they are obvious.
I especially like the posts on Stormfront Girls section where the women moan about always being hit on by awful men….comes as no surprise.
BTW a poster on Stormfront called Librarian comes from Ventnor…
(Report comment)
MT….they are among many things that make Britain Great…its called tollerence….
(Report comment)
Hello I’m back just took my eye off the ball for a mo to have me tea. A world feast indeed. Potatoes form Israel, sweet corn from South Africa, salad from Europe and a quiche from the local co op. Mind you half way thought the meal, the South African sweet corn did ask to be moved to a section of the plate away from all other food. Oh when will we live in a world like the coke advert “I’d like to teach the world to sing etc. etc.
Kj 24 & 25
Very interesting quotes. Where did you get them? I obviously find these (if true) just crazy. These do not stop me wanting to discuss or comment about the BMP. I also don’t think it valid to say all members of BNP have the exact same ideas. Thatcher had tea with many dictators during her administration. Does this mean all Tories then and now support such leaders and their actions? You would seem to be saying so.
Wighteye 26
I’m sorry if I haven’t been clear in my comments on Christian fundamentalism. We are talking about the BNP and British matters, not world affairs. This country tolerates all religions ( good) yet I feel Christianity does play second fiddle, fearful of reprisals and back lash. Jesus and his teachings are so easily available as a target, make a joke about Mohamed in this country and see how you get on. It is a double standard. Bush is a nutter with his hand on the chicken switch. I can’t see the connection between his madness and the belittling of the UK’s main faith under the banner of understanding.
kj you say “MT….they are among many things that make Britain Great…its called tollerence….
Tolerate the legal BMP you can’t choose to tolerate only the bits you like if you want a free society. Come on, eat from the whole multi cultural plate, and don’t leave the bits you don’t like. It’ll be brought out next tea time till it’s gone….. It’s the real thing la la la la la
(Report comment)
BNP not BMP sorry ;-)
(Report comment)
The quotes are Nick Griffins very own words…
Comparing Margeret Thatcher with BNP….ummmm!!
I completely understand what you are saying and the BNP can become a powerful and true indicator of peoples will when they get rid of the criminals and racists…..unfortunately there will be no party left, but hey better to start from grass roots than build on contaminated ground.
I’m happy to tollerate anybody, even the BNP…I would never actively exclude them, except where thier views pose a recoqnised threat (i.e. The Police). I wouldn’t drive them underground, the best voice against the BNP is the BNP own, especially whilst the current idiots and criminals are in charge…’damned by their own voice’
My views on all religions are the same, i treat one no less or no more than the other, especially Christians ,Muslims and Jews as they worship the same God.
I would also have the same comments to make about a racist leftwing organisation, but Ive yet to meet one as fundementally flawed and ill-led as this particular Right wing one.
(Report comment)
Let’s see how many people still regard the BNP as dangerous in 20 years time when as some Muslims predict we will be under Islamic law. Will it be an offence punishable by stoning to speak English? Will Prince Charles or William convert to Islam? Will the Royal British Legion be outlawed?
Many of those moaning in the media today about the BNP will be dead by then anyway or will have left it too late to stand up and be counted. Most Island folk haven’t got a clue concerning the multicultural immigration chaos going on across the water and probably don’t want to know either.
Our children and our heritage are suffering right now. If we did care about it, we’d not vote for any of the three mainstream parties.
I personally feel as does Trevor Phillips (Commission for Racial Equality) that multiculturism does not work and I’ll go further by saying that I feel the freedom our soldiers fought and died for has been for nothing and to see the three main political parties laying wreathes at the Cenotaph in London breaks my heart. As a 41 year old male who respects the sacrifices made for our freedom, the BNP is the only party I feel I can currently identify with and I’m not even a member (yet). I was interviewing a young lad yesterday for possible employment who didn’t know who the Royal British Legion was. So sad.
However at this present time, I’m far more concerned with all the current mainstream and local elected politicians, many who appear to be totally unaccountable, who often make catastrophic decisions, hide behind red tape and expect us to pay for it whilst laughing at us.
(Report comment)
Didn’t Tony Blair claim to have consulted God before we joined the invasion of Iraq?
I’m deeply suspicious of any form of fundamentalism and intolerance. We are indeed fortunate to have some level of freedom of expression and that may include membership of a party that others abhor. After all, freedom requires give and take. However, it also requires respect for others and I am not sure that the BNP exhibits that in their behaviour.
(Report comment)
Okay people. Can we now move on, please? Let’s not give this silly party and its 21 pathetic IOW members any more of our time.
(Report comment)
I completely agree…its now yesterdays news
How about those flys in Ventnor!!!!
(Report comment)
@ kj. Not wanting to appear pedantic, but should “flys” not read “flies”?
(Report comment)
It probably should, but my degrees are in History and Archaeology, not English :-)
both ‘look’ right though and you know what I mean!!
(Report comment)
It may be yesterday’s news but I have only just sat down- but I will be brief
KJ all very well made points
Mary, Do you belong to the BNP? or just thinking of joining-maybe in their PR department they rely on people like you giving them the benefit of the doubt.
I have had first hand experience of an IOW BNP members views and am deeply disturbed by the lack of acceptance and hate directed at many groups in our society by this group.
(Report comment)
Blimey, amazing what a response to this story!
Mary Teague, I am surprised by your short memory, a fine example of Christian fundamentalist bombers were the IRA (Catholic) and UVF(Protestant). We should not forget the IRA conducted a murderous campaign- Guidford/ Birmingham pub bombings, Omargh, Brighton and Manchester, over many years killing far more people in this country than Al Quada have to date.
On the question of Anne Bishop, I would point out that it was an example of democracy at work, she was expelled by a majority vote of the Conservative Association/ Group Executive. We may disagree with their position on education but they have a right to ensure that all councillors/ candidates support their position. The Tories will be judged next May on whether the voters believe their claims about education on the Island.
Chris, do you honestly think we are gong to become a Muslim country, highly unlikely but just the nonesense that the BNP preach. I think we have more to fear from the Christian fundamentalists- creationalism, anti- stem cell, etc.
Thanks Kj for all your posts on the real face of the BNP.
(Report comment)
Hello sk
In a free thinking society we would not be lambasting Mary Teague or making sarcastic comments regarding the BNP PR department we would be addressing the real issue of why people feel drawn to this party and it radical views. Many in our broken Britain feel they are ignored and side lined and they are no longer represented in main stream politics. This is very disturbing and should be addressed by politicians across the parties. If I were a member of the BNP I would be on the list. I am not. I am an individual keen to discuss all points of view and I will not make statements generally painting groups of people with broad opinions, BNP members included. We must, if we wish to progress address issues raised here, with a more open approach. Politics in Ireland were blood stained until they stopped shooting and stared talking. The BNP may well be exactly what you say, I want full discussions and disclosure before I make up my mind. I’d also like bloggers to use their names. I do.
(Report comment)
Oh I hate the taste of Earl grey tea however; I’m old enough to remember the IRA at its worst. The whole nightmare situation was created by a section of society (Catholics in general) feeling it was being side lined and discriminated against. I say that the interest in the BNP is being bought about by similar feelings and yelling how awful they are (and they may well be) does not address that issue.
I have made the effort to attend several council meetings and have seen the Tory group in action while in debate over the education issue. They were like sheep and despite opposition cross party comment only one Tory stood up and spoke (Lady Piggott, Bembridge) all others stayed silent and then block voted the proposal through. This sheep mentality doesn’t impress me. To expel some one under the claim of democracy for stating a view opposite to the leadership says much for the state of the Tories. It does not inspire me that they have free will or are free thinking. I think the Tories will be re elected much to your delight I expect Mr Tetley….sorry Earl Grey. That’s democracy
(Report comment)
Mary as you said its a free country so I choose to use my initials.
Lambasting does not appear to be the correct word regarding my posting, I wasn’t being sarcastic I was asking you a question, which you haven’t really answered.
Interesting that you did not comment on my first hand experience of IOW BNP views.
Also phrases like broken britain are part of Daily Mail Tory propaganda and are sensationalist.
Without any doubt we face many challenges in our society today these will not be solved by one extremist party blaming anyone who is different.
Earl Grey such a refreshing flavour!
(Report comment)
Mary v interesting you feel it is appropriate for you to be offensive towards others (earl grey)
(Report comment)
Hello sk who ever you are
I’m sorry if you feel I didn’t answer your question. I thought the statement that I’m not a member of the BNP answered the question “Are you a member of the BNP?” Just to clarify I’m not a member of the BNP. Hope that helps :-) Please don’t wait for an invitation from me the share your first hand experiences of the IOW BNP views, blog away. I look forward to hearing them. First hand experiences are the best. I don’t read the Daily Mail I read Private Eye. I’m sure Earl Grey can cope with a tongue in cheek comment. He can have a brew to get over it.
(Report comment)
I don’t hide behind a non de plume and I have posted the true word and convictions against members of the BNP…all freely available ( and not denied by the BNP as it would be pointless) I could go on for day posting the list of elected BNP councillors who have been ejected from offices through mis-practise, abuse, viloence or just plain never turning up. I can post statements by elected BNP councillors who once elected found out exactly who they were working for and resigned. Every step of the way the BNP are dogged by who they are and no amount of candy floss will ever cover the truth….now matter how long you take to consider it.
Now I understand you may want to take time to consider your view on the BNP
Yes we do have to look at areas where the BNP have been successful, Stoke on Trent and Lincs etc and ask ourselves why are they not getting the message, what local situations push people to vote for Nazis..how bad must the other parties be in these areas for the BNP to win…or how many lies have been told.
(Report comment)
A very interesting discussion going on; the voice of reason belongs to Mary Teague. All she is saying is take a step back and think.
You should perhaps consider the opinions and hate that are emanating from many posters on this subject. Is the BNP really full of racist bigots or just ordinay people who despair when they read about, for example, our elderly having to choose between heating or eating while some immigrants live in luxurious homes? I have always wondered how we can have a situation where our own people end up living rough while new arrivals with no connection to this country are automatically entitled to housing etc.
Will there be ‘rivers of blood’ or will we learn to all get along? There are so many ifs, buts and maybes. There are challenging times ahead but I, for one, am not looking forward to getting old in this country. On the other hand, at least I won’t live long enough to see if the predictions I read about come true, that the ‘indigenous’ people of this land are set to become a minority within 30, 40,50 years? It makes me wonder how the indigenous peoples of the countries of the British Empire felt when they were taken over though.
kj’ you’re an historian, perhaps you can cast some light for us. At the same time, perhaps you would provide me with the source of your quote from Mr Griffin, I always like to check rather than accept without question. If you are correct, then, unless Mr Griffin has changed a great deal (and don’t forget we now have ex Irish terrorists at Westminster), then he is indeed deserving of contempt. BTW I don’t think that Mary Teague was comparing Mrs T to the BNP, she was using a valid argument to illustrate a point. Please pay attention, there will be questions later!
sk, you were rude to Mary Teague and should apologise for it.
(Report comment)
Hi Mary, I’m a 15 year old from the island. I recocnise you may have a lot more experience than me but it seems you have double standards on what people can say and what you yourself are allowed to say, by the way i like all your word play its really intelligent and funny- gets your point across erm.. well.
I don’t think sk was implying you read the daily mail just pointing out the connotation of ‘broken Britain’. I’d also like to point out that Private Eye isn’t a newspaper it’s a somewhat satirical look at the current news. I know this was a while back but i’ve only just read the whole conversation- ACCEPTANCE and diversity is what makes Britain bloody great.
(Report comment)
FOP perhaps you should be FOMT clearly Mary can speak for herself and has responded.
I was not rude to Mary Teague and merely asked a question and expressed a different view,and I have no need to apologise.
(Report comment)
Hello friend of Pugh….sorry Piglet. Don’t worry about sk being rude. It’s clear from the postings that they consider their opinion absolutely correct and there is no possibility validating other views or indeed other facts. I don’t like that but can live with it. I’m willing to accept the posting on BNP convictions are true, I’m willing to accept the BNP may well be everything so far said. I just want to think about the whole issue. Many other bloggers are not so open minded as me or willing to think about others opinions which is sad. This can never lead to true discussion :-(
(Report comment)
Mary, is it that you are hating I am right on the christian bomber question?
To compare the BNP issue to the blatant discrimination faced by Catholics (of all political views) in NI under Protestant rule is quite something. However let us remember that a majority of the Catholic community never lost faith in democracy.
Unless you think that David Pugh is intimidating all these councillors, I have to say I think that all these silent Tory councillors actually support Pugh over the reforms. Many things have been said about Pugh recently but I can not see him as ruling the roost in a Sadam Hussein style.
They all still have free will but are thinking tory thoughts.
Next May will decide whether that is what the voters want, personally I think things need to change in the education system but I am unhappy with much of what has been proposed for our schools.
Sk thanks for the support.
(Report comment)
kj, you have posted again and I re-iterate, please provide the source of your information so that I can check what you say for myself.
There is, of course, another side to all this. I think, for balance, we should mention the skeletons in the cupboards of the other parties. Weren’t a number of the current cabinet and front benchers members of the Communist Party in the past? How about considering the possibility that leopards don’t change their spots with reference to them too?
(Report comment)
Mary I had imagined you had responded to me if you thought I was rude surely you would have said, I don’t believe in anyway I am absolutely correct, I merely posted my view which I thought was the point.
It is interesting that you feel you can comment on others personally (FOP and Earl Grey) obviously you being rude is ok.
(Report comment)
the source of the quote is Mr Griffin himself..its one of his famous ones…simply go to the BNP site and ask him.
The BNP is not full of racist bigots, they just run it and are in the majority…normal people don’t follow the swastika in this country unless they have been truyly misled. (ever been to a BNP meeting..I have, union flags and swastikas side by side)Try watching the BBC or Channel 4 documentary on them when they sneaked insiders in..you will see the true BNP ‘all sieg heil and nazi salutes…the Channel 4 one was this year
My Griffin spoke last week at a fascist conference in Hungary to mark the end of Russian rule. no change of spots from this leopard.
Rivers of Blood..uncle Enoch at his very best describing the impact of Black and early asian immigrants..you know those ones that are almost total intergrated into society now…maybe not quite up to the Obama level. The minority have always responded to the threat of immigrants into this country in a very negative way going back to the Jews, the Flemish, protestant french, Irish, but history shows they all take their place within English society. It is this mix that makes you what YOU are now and its the ability of this country and our society to adapt and improve.
You want a strange historical fact…When Rome conquered Britain in 43AD he did so with soldiers who were black and brown. In Roman tradition once they had completed their service they took property and wives in the countries they served in. 400 years before the Anglo Saxon invasion.
This land is England and belongs to no one race, but to a people who call themselves English a diverse and proud race.
Now if I have failed to instill an iota of doubt about the credibility of the BNP, then I have failed and humankind looses again, but there is only so much that can be said without it just repeating itself over and over again. If you do have a doubt there are loads of sites out there that will help you along…otherwise theres the BNP website with all the other racists, because if after all this, you still choose the BNP …thats what you are
15 minutes until its really yesterdays news
(Report comment)
and on that note kj thank you and goodnight :)
(Report comment)
Hello Earl Grey
I’m not sure what you mean about Christian bomber question? Perhaps I haven’t expressed my views clearly. We are a multi faith society and long may it continue. I feel the tolerant Christian views of this country are exploited by some other faiths who get politically motivated to awful acts because they want their religion and no other. Make a joke about Mohammed and see how you get on? That lack of tolerance from other religions frightens me. I don’t know what you mean by hating that you are right? I only suggested that BNP increased membership and Catholic violent reaction stemmed from people feeling side lined and ignored on their own county. Two different stories but an interesting notion of how people react when pushed by their perceptions (right or wrong) of how they are being treated.
I think your right about David. He’s a smashing lad and it was just fete that led to total obedience from all the Tories. I stand corrected. And I think people like you will be responsible for his re election. How many kids have you got in IOW schools?
(Report comment)
One or two may have been communists when they were young (moreso in the past)..but so what..
Communism is a poltical school of thought, as is fascism, both exist quite happily without racism. when you get a maniac like Stalin or Hitler in charge anything can happen.
Its not the political affiliation that is the problem, its not right or left wing….its downright racist bigotry, violence and hatred. How many of the current cabinet have been to jail for race crimes or violence….none. It seems just an effort to detract people attention away from the BNP and racsism
7 minutes to ‘Yesterdays news’ you’d better hurry
at midnight I turn into a pumpkin
(Report comment)
The difference between the IRA and Muslim terrorists seem to be one of scale and the fact that the Muslim terrorists seem to hate the whole world, which they want to Islamise. I am not an expert of course, it just seems that way to me.
I’m off to bed, I hope there aren’t any Reds under it; only joking, if that’s still allowed.
(Report comment)
Friend of Piglet, I can see you have been reading the Daily Express a bit too much recently, there is no connection between immigrants and the poor level of support for the elderly in this country. We still do not support our elderly properly in this country but this is more to do with our political culture and its obsession with youth.
The whole ‘Rivers of Blood’ statement is a tad dated, as a country we do get along and somewhat richer culturally, politically and economically for it. Kj has rightly pointed out that many immigrants have come to this country and become British.
Mary, you posed the Christian bomber question in 13. I have to say you seem to be very pro- Pugh but I do not intend personnally to see them re-elected, and for the record I have 2 children in Island schools.
(Report comment)
Any religion when forced into a corner, comes out fighting..an old adage and a correct one. For many years Islam has been undergoing a change and that change has happened from the ground up. Islam has now spread to more non arab countries than arab ones and the libralisation of Islam is well under way. The Islamic Council of Britain is full testimony to thsi. In response, the minority have come out fighting in a way that it knows works, terrorism and propoganda..and their target is as much liberal Islam as it is USA/UK. They seek to drive their followers back to the fold…it ain’t happening. They have their own version of ‘Hearts and Souls’.
The real problem at the moment is that the liberal muslim community has to stand up to its militants and as long as WE lump them all in together and parties like the BNP continue in this quest, that will not happen quickly. They need our support and our love ( and our commercialism, TV, McDonalds etc) then Islam will defeat its own demons.
Pumpkin timeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
(Report comment)
Sk 52 – rudeness is in the ear of the beholder. Good God are the bloggers of VB so delicate that they can’t take a tea related quip (I called Mr Earl Grey Mr Tetley and FOP Friend of Pugh) It was a joke. Remember jokes, we used to have them here before we all became strangled by political correctness and up our own back sides (neat trick if you can do it). I apologies unreservedly to all for my drink related offences. I apologies to their families, their friends, the Pope, Tom Cruse, Tiny Wink, Dips….Why don’t you phone those nice people on the telly, you know the ones “have you had an accident in the last three years that wasn’t your fault” I’m sure they will have a beverage section for those emotionally scared by tea related incidents. You could be quid’s in Earl Grey & FOP.
(Report comment)
Interesting article on news night, last night. They had commissioned a poll of the printed BNP membership to look at the demography and social categorization of those listed. They concluded the membership is concentrated in 5 areas where immigration is a huge local issue and that there are generally two groups of members. The pit bull owning, tattooed fraternity (as one expect in a right wing organisation) and blue collar workers. Skilled and qualified individuals.
They also said that all the mainstream parties would have/look at such data in order to target these voters. Interesting stuff.
(Report comment)
Now,now children settle down. Cuddly your soft toy and enjoy a nice cup of tea……!
(Report comment)
to compare the awful episodes in Northern Ireland to the irrationality is an affont to the victims, having been there – the discrimination was blatant and demeaning particuarly if you were catholic – once the reaction and conflict were at their irrational height, fortunately – andone may notice that agreement was built with the ‘informal’ help of the U.S. govt.- it would be hard to reconcile ‘it’s stated ‘war on terror’ with the previous position.
Sad to say that the displacement of peoples and ‘identity’ by ‘religeon’ instead of territory was a process perhaps begun in the 1700’s by economic consequence to common people of the Enclosure Act and later the Highland Clearances by the Lairds to whom the profit from sheep meant rather more in practice than the lives of their ‘tenant’ crofter agrarian subsidence villages- all that ‘romantic’ guff about Clans and ‘Braveheart’ is like , the 1990’s series of holywood films about the ‘troubles’ -distorted and an attempt to sentimentalise myth and fiction rather than empirical analysis or even facts.
remember -this when you hear politicians going on about the ’special relationship’- remember how economic influence allied to nascent nationalism as flags of convienience for economic rivalry with opportunities for profit and exploitation afforded by conflict – the iow’s economic rise during the late 18th century trade wars due to rice, grain during the napoleonic blockades and embargoes, shipbuilding and the spice,sugar and slave trade earlier as part of economic financing of early us colonists is well documented on the wonderful IOW history site, http://freespace.virgin.net/roger.hewitt/iwias/home.htm.
indeed the whole of history-particuarly colonialism which lets face it depended on the active connivance of indigenous economic ruling despots or rather landowners allied to economic muscle, whichever area and conglomoration of economic power and brute force ‘justified’the blatant economic exploitation by ‘religeon’-usually in a covenient bigoted local form, this actually appears incidental of human history regardless of race or hue – though the use by distinction allows the manipulation of willing accomplices by temporary abherrent ignorance.
having said that i have a certain dispute with Mr.Pugh and a local association office of which i re-affirm on grounds of discrimination to which i have not yet had the courtesy of a written response.
profit and seeming personal ‘advantage’-whether political to mask economic power and ’sheep’ and rascism – have we changed so very much? I think you’ll agree that we had better believe in the youth of today to ensure that the very real institutional and legislative changes keep some of our , and I include my own, baser instincts at bay…
we have to learn to balance the needs of the wider community or English Nation with that of the personal selfish interest with acceptance of ‘incentive- bonuses’(organised religeon? )or ‘competition’ until as a collective and individual whole we recognise this and grow up and lose our insecurity.
(Report comment)
My last comment.
It doesn’t matter what you, I or the King of Siam think of the BNP. The bottom line is that they are a legal, constituted party and the people of this country still have freedom of speech within the law.
Voltairs said something along the lines of ” I disagree with what you say but I would fight to the death for your right to say it”. THAT is what our ancestors fought and died for and, despite the erosion of civil liberties brought about by this government, that is why this country is still part of GREAT Britain.
The membership of the BNP will increase because the people’s concerns are not being addressed. If the leadership consists of racist bigots then they will fall. If they step out of line they will be prosecuted.
It’s a pity that the authorities, police and media are not as zealous when it comes to protecting innocent children and prosecuting crooked and/or greedy, grasping politicians. I would have a lot more respect for the political establishment if its rules did not legally allow its members to rip off the taxpayer, which they take advantage of so comrehensively.
(Report comment)
Sorry, it was Voltaire wot said it, not Voltairs!
(Report comment)
Hi there
The whole point about freedom is that people must have the right to believe and say what feels right to them. Dialogue and education and democracy must address issues rather than attempts to stifle people.
Obviously the limitation to that is that they don’t have the right to prevent other people using that right, and nor do we.
I’m a fervent supporter of Proportional Representation. I know that means we would have BNP members of parliament. But they do represent the views of a significant number of people in this country, and it’s far healthier to have them in the mainstream than underground, where things fester.
‘I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.’ Voltaire said that, during the Age of Enlightenment, and it’s still true. The soldiers who died in the various wars our government have signed us up to were protecting that freedom. Witch hunts were always a stupid idea.
Jonathan
(Report comment)
If there was a chance of the BNP getting into parliament less people would vote for them.
Most BNP voters do so once as a protest vote. Almost a third of members do not pay a second years dues. Claiming to be or voying BNP is seen by many as a two finger sign to real polticians. whne it comes to real politics many chose real politicians.
(Report comment)
KJ Post 61 referring to the more liberal Muslims – quote “They need our support and our love (and our commercialism, TV, McDonalds etc) then Islam will defeat its own demons”
I’m sure you are a very nice educated and well meaning person, but this sort of wishy washy lets all be friends attitude and meddling has got us into this current multicultural argument and mess. Even the head of the commission for equalities and human rights Trevor Phillips has now washed his hands concerning a functional and mutually happy multicultural society saying it can never work.
I can’t remember the last time I saw a more liberal Muslim happy to be snacking on a Big Mac with fries in McDonalds or say a group of Muslim women boogying the night away, enjoying alcohol in moderation and the company of local lads at Colonel Bogey’s.
Not wishing to target Muslims only, I would rather see the hoards of all immigrants entering the UK embracing the British way of life, learning and speaking our language, accepting our heritage, appreciating the sacrifices our soldiers made for such freedom, grateful for free of charge access to our NHS and benefits system.
Whilst I’m happy to learn of different cultures and to offer protection to those persecuted, I’m British first, I will always be so and I don’t want to be anything else. That should be my right in my own country and I should not be in fear of being labelled a racist for my beliefs or bullied into being different. If I choose to move to another country, I’d expect to adopt and embrace their ways and faith’s fully.
In this country, I’d much rather see all immigrants contributing willingly to our British way of life and accepting that our elderly folk who have paid into the system for all of their lives should come first in the pecking order followed by their children. What I don’t want to see is dozens of our Police engaged in closing off streets and wasting precious time for the likes of the now jailed and Controversial Muslim cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri preaching hate in outside rallies.
If immigrants cannot obtain work, support themselves and fit into a British community, then they should leave and not add to our population. Non re-production should also apply to our own British grown feral out of control work shy culture, again pandered to by the wishy washy liberals and do gooders who want to hug a hoodie.
The BNP certainly does have a chequered history of radical people, just like the three current mainstream parties. KJ you quote a number of documented BNP misdemeanours in post 21. Take a look at some of these: – http://bnp.org.uk/bnp-resources/liars-buggers-and-thieves/ there are always two sides to an argument and I would respectfully suggest that this list of cretins balances the argument. There are more and more respectable people turning to the BNP now, as it is the only party they like me can identify with.
We were never ever given an opportunity to vote on a multicultural UK, it’s been imposed on us by political parties who will say anything we want to hear in order to get a vote. Abandoning multiculturism will never happen in my lifetime, so I’d much more like it if the hoards of foreigners entering the UK just said thank you, whilst quietly going on their way and leaving me to quietly go my way.
Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this. Try doing so on the Daily Mail or Sky News sites, no chance of doing so. The government in the media mogul’s pockets, blocking publicity to the BNP, selective reporting, bullied editors – more topics to discuss as well as those flies in Ventnor?
(Report comment)
How many labour od conservative members are mass murdering nail bombers. How many deny the holocaust.
I quote details about BNP thugs..because the post is about the BNP…if you wish to satrt a post about the other parties then by all means go to the forum and do so..you won’t find me arguning that any criminal should hold a position in a political party…(If this was the rule..there would be no BNP)
What wishy washy lets all be friends…I’m in favour of death sentance for convicted mass murderers (whatever their religion) I beleive it should be a rule that they speak English before seeking to live here, that unless they have a real political reason for bing here thay have sufficient means to support themselves and receive no benefits for 6 months after entry.
This should be true of ALL immigrants.
Are you suggesting that normal people relate to “churchill was a c**nt”, “Hitler was right” ” Holocaust didn’t happen”. These are the current thougts of leading members of the BNP..not history
When you new members of the BNP get enough power to get rid of Griffin and his Cronies, his recent policy amd membership plans will guarentee that the party is bankrupt in the payouts they receiv. His changes to the rules on who can or can’t vote following last years atteepted coup have made it almosty certain that he will never be removed anyway.
My comments about McDonalds etc was to illustrate that the more westernised and more liberal Muslims are becomeing and Islam has to follow. The radicals will fight this and yes in future there will be more and more bloodshed as they become more pressured, even today the Saudi Peace Agrrement is being met with hope in Israel..another nail in the radicals coffin.
I’m no Liberal…but I’m not a fool either. The current BNP is riddled with racists, criminals and fools. That can all change in the future..lets hope so. In 10 years time I would love to vote for a real Nationalist party, one that has done away with its bigots and racists and one that can be a real part in the political game in this country.
(Report comment)
A very well written post by the way…shame its wasted on the BNP, why not try UKIP now they’ve kicked out all the BNP wannabees
(Report comment)
Really terrible spellin all over that….sorry
(Report comment)
Kj I can not believe what you are saying, nationalism is frankly only one step away from fascism. It is the refuge of the little englanders and their belief in some mystical golden age that never existed. It is also above all not British, leave such misguided ideas to foreigners!
Interesting point about McDonalds, having been to a Muslim country I can report they are as popular there as here. There is a theory in International politics that no two nations, both with McDonalds, will go to war! On a serious point most Arabs when asked would like to become Americans rather than Saudi citizens. The real enemy is not the ‘evil’ West but the deeply corrupt governments that rule the Arab world.
A final couple of points on the imigration issue, I from a purely selfish point of view am pleased that we have had an influx of people. Just look at the demographics, at least in this country by the time I retire there will be enough workers paying taxes to support me in retirement. This can not be said for most of Europe where collapsing levels of reproduction are causing policy makers a real problem when forecasting tax revenues. Also many of these migrants are filling vacancies that can not be met locally, this in turn stops the economy over heating and creating run away inflation, something that is bad for everyone.
We should also not forget that because of the multi cultural nature of London, it has become the No 1 financial centre even overtaking New York. Even with the current problems this is likely to remain the case.
Finally I would proudly say that yes I am a liberal, I believe in democracy, freedom and tolerance, and oppose the death penalty. These are core British values and long may they continue!
(Report comment)
sorry but whilst its not what the liberals will want to here Chris`s post 69 brings up many valid thoughts and fears of our immigration failings and thus the BNP will thrive.
Like All rational people I agree with many individual policies but not All the teachings of any one party in politics. When the BNP want immigration controls this is what appeals to people not global rascism but proper border control with stronger entry requirements Most would agree that the majority of illegals are not fleeing tyranny but are simply economic migrants looking for a better life …the question is .. At who`s expense
(Report comment)
Maybe If I clarify that I would love to be able to vote for a Nationalist party…not that I actually would.
I would also like to clarify that the option for death sentance would be reserved for successful terrorists, who in many cases are suicide bomber anyway
(Report comment)
I completely agree Mellowman, we need a properly ordererd and maintained border control and immigration policy.
Turning to the BNP is not an answer to this as there other policies such as banning gays, abortion, deporting non-whites etc ensure that they will never get into power to implement them…far better to support a party that can actually get the job done.
When you vote BNP you vote for the whole package, not just the little bit you agree with…a cross in that box puts you shoulder to shoulder with a man who says
“I honestly can’t understand how a man who’s seen the inner city hell of Britain today can’t look back on that era [Hitler's Germany] with a certain nostalgia and think yeah, those people marching through the streets and all those happy people out in the streets, you know, saluting and everything, was a bad thing.” MArk Collett – Director of Publicity, BNP ( the funniest joke in ages)
(Report comment)
Last word from me on this subject:
I find Jonathan’s post the perfect answer. It’s quite brilliant in its simplicity. One man (or woman or nervous sex change pre operative) one vote. This would give a true representation of the feelings of the country. If the BNP are totally racist to a man then they will be found out, if they hold an element of this then they will be found out. The liberals who have posted on this subject on VB blog can not complain as this would be democracy in its truest form. My closing comment is this. If it was possible to bring the soldiers back from World War 1 and show them our country as it is today, do you think they would view their sacrifice as worth it? For our tomorrow they gave their today. It a big debt to repay and we must find a way to reach common ground on the future of our country.
PS I have spoken openly for all to hear under my real name. What a shame those who have attacked me (kj,Earl Grey & sk) didn’t do the same. Perhaps some one will release a list of VBloggers with all of your names and address. You have been warned….
(Report comment)
attacked you…when…Are you confessing to be a memebr of the BNP, the only people I have attacked.
Mind you, as you can’t beleive the evidense put before you (quote “If the BNP are totally racist to a man then they will be found out, if they hold an element of this then they will be found out.) They have been found out yet you continue to ignore this. Its in your face on here, its online its in the newspapers, its on the internet..its a legal fact (why else are they banned from being Policemen).
Yet you still say “if”
If we could bring back a soldier from WW2 and show him a BNP conference with swastika and German military songs..How do you think they would view their sacrifice. Its a big debt to pay and I for one will stand for what they fought for..freedom.
Sorry forgot these posts only have my initials, forum uses my name and its no secret from anybody on here..Its Kevin Jay
(Report comment)
Hello Kev mate, how wonderful to address you with your christian name, so much friendlier don’t you think? Have you read all my posts?
“Confessing to be a member of the BNP” read posting No 45.
Believe evidence put before you read posting 50.
It’s so much easier to be as you are rather than answer the question which I have posed from the start. If the BNP is a racist party (and I think there is a strong element which will always be that way in this ultra right wing organisation) then why are so many joining and why is this membership now including others than the usual candidates (posting 62) I do not believe it is helpful nor indeed accurate to say they are all racist, Nazi animals. The membership would not be as it is as I credit the public with more intelligence. It is worrying that so many feel that the extreme BNP is the only option open to them. Let’s discuss that. Sorry Kev can’t hang about I’m off out to my Indian cooking class followed by my “have you met your own genitalia?” work shop It’s a self awareness forum run by a women’s group called “Up your way” chat soon ;-)
(Report comment)
MT..I’ve giving it a miss..can’t have this overtaking the Maharaja post. If you wish to continue on do so in the forum and let these poor people have their blog back
(Report comment)
Thanks MT, best laugh I’ve had all day.
(Report comment)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7740817.stm
best laugh I’ve had all day
(Report comment)
Yes I saw this too, interesting to see how this will pan out. Think back to when Ken Livingstone was accused by a member of the public of making a racists remark ( he compared some to a concentration camp guard) sack him cries kj. Well he wasn’t sacked, the Law courts ruled he was acting as a private citizen. If this PC joined as a private citizen why is he, no matter how unpalatable it may be, not allowed the same rights as Mr Livingstone? Both are public servants. Why ids the BNP banned to certain sections of society? That’s undemocratic. If it’s deemed unfit for police, teachers etc. then it should be deemed unfit for all surly? Of course the 10,000 membership may have something to say about that. It’s the hypocrisy around this subject that I find ludicrous.
(Report comment)
Mary, I dread to think what it would look like if, following your post 77, you had something else to say about the subject! ;-)
(Report comment)
Read Richard Littlejohn in the Daily Mail today.
That’s funnier and truthful, even if it is a spoof.
I have just taken this definition of fascism off the web: “A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually ”
Which party do you think that describes?
(Report comment)
BTW, why do all lefties take themselves so seriously? Is it perhaps that a lot of them are overgrown students who think that having a degree makes them better than the rest of us?
Answers on a postcard please.
(Report comment)
Sorry Friend of Piglet. No postcard to hand. but the answer to 86 is Yes and the answer to 85 is a fascist one.
Do I win anything?
(Report comment)
Sorry steve s,that gets you 1 out of 10 for trying, a full answer is required to win. The prize, if answered correctly, is knowing that you come top of the class.
(Report comment)
Mary T, you have a good point there with regard to Ken Livingstone. That ruling spoilt the ability of the SBE to do its job in many cases where there was fault to find. In fact, I know of one such case on the Island, involving a high profile local politician who behaved badly but got away with it because of the Ken Livingstone ruling.
To return to the main point. It is basic freedoms which are being undermined here. Either people are free to think what they want and affiliate themselves to whatever political party they choose, within the law, OR we are living in the beginnings of a fascist and totalitarian state. That seems to be the direction we are heading in and, to many people, it is a frightening prospect.
That is one reason why increasing numbers of decent people are supporting the BNP.
(Report comment)
I feel the urge descend upon me to chip in.
I am not a BNP member. I loathe the organisation. I think it has tried hard to put on a coat of respectability in order to widen its appeal yet, underneath, it remains the same vehicle for misconceived dogma which it always was (curiously, this is exactly the same metamorphosis Blair put the Labour Party through 10 years ago. I digress).
My wife is a BNP member. There have been domestic disagreements, nay, arguments, nay, downright rows over this. But let me say this:
1. I know my wife is not a racist, any more than I am. We have had too many non-white, non-Christian, non-English friends over the years for that, and we both worked happily for many years in multicultural bliss. So we know that multiculturalism can work. However, for it to do so it requires all the sub-cultures involved to want it to work. If one (or more) of those sub-cultures is intent on destroying the others, then it isn’t going to work. I would suggest that maybe neither the BNP which lies underneath the surface nor militant Islam want muliculturalism to work, therefore it isn’t going to.
2. I passionately support her right to belong to the BNP even though I deplore the organisation itself and regard it as little, if at all, better than the “disease” it seeks to “cure”.
3. We are both Little Englanders, if you will. I don’t see this as something to be ashamed of. Change is inevitable and, when that change is (for instance) an improvement to tolerance, that is a good thing. But there is much of the England we grew up in – the post war, baby boom England – which was good (primarily a generosity of spirit, now replaced by a mean spirited cult of self, embraced by both right and left wings). So I agree that the England of my childhood is gone, wilfully destroyed, and I mourn its passing.
4. There appears to be a kneejerk reaction against BNP membership. I understand this because it is my reaction, too. But the fact that my wife – a caring, non-racist person – sees fit to become a member is cause for me to take a step backwards and look at things a little more dispassionately than simply kneejerking (and I have to be honest, I can see a lot of kneejerks in the posts preceding this one). The key question here is – Why support the BNP if you are not racist? And the answer is that the BNP appears to be the only party which purports to represent certain values.
5. So what are those values? OK -
5.1 Change society so that merit is rewarded, not fecklessness;
5.2 Stop supporting those who seek to destroy society (whether militant Islamic clerics, feral youths or right wing racists);
5.3 Don’t import people who take from society;
5.4 Re-establish pride in our history and culture;
5.5 When immigrants are welcomed, make it clear that it is a two-way process. If they don’t want to be British (which, at the very least, includes adopting the language), feel free not to come here;
These seem to be the elements which particularly impact on the BNP argument. There are, of course, other relevant issues to the erosion of values which I personally view as worthwhile – the breakdown of the nuclear family, so much open corruption in public office, the way the rights of the perpetrator so often take precedence over the rights of the victim etc. etc. and ever-more etc.
But perhaps I should stop here before I depress myself into an early grave.
(Report comment)
utter rubbish…thugs and morons and mis-guided people
(Report comment)
kj,desperate times call for desperate measures? You are saying that someone can’t be decent and a member of the BNP. Who are you to know what people think and what motivates them?
Did you say you were a history graduate? Surely you learnt to look at the past and use your brain to analyse and think? I’m afraid you are not showing much sign of it on this blog if you did.
(Report comment)
“why do all lefties take themselves so seriously”
All extremists take themselves seriously, but in my experience, most entertainers and comedians are left-leaning, while few right-wingers see the funny side of anything. Think Mrs T…
(Report comment)
yes..extremist profit in times of trouble..the nutters always do, some turn to religion, other turn to nazi racists, like Germany did in 1934.
This is interesting though…two days ago BNP leader, Griffin, agreed the lsit was an accurate members list showing 12,000 members (2000 up for 3 years ago) It became clear that the list also contained ex-members and today they have stated that it also contains the names of people who requested an information pack…In fact almost a third have been weeded out…So it shows the membership has dropped..along with the bank balance.
Pretty soon those rebels who were kicked out of the party last year will be standing as independent rascists and this will rob the poor old BNP of even more votes.
But what does Griffin fear…he just voted himself a massive retirement payoff in excess of the parties funds.
No you can’t be decent and a member of BNP…you can be misled or temporarily insane, but no decent human being aligns themselves with nail bombers, paedophiles, holocaust deniers, racists and criminals. The only avenue of decency for any reasonable member, once the evidence has been seen is to resign from the party.
I here the the movement to reduce the age of consent to 12 also have a strong stance on immigration…maybe you(sorry decent people) should go and join them
(Report comment)
THE brightest children go on to vote Liberal Democrat or Green, according to a survey.
The study by Edinburgh University researchers has found that childhood intelligence is linked to voting preferences and political involvement in adulthood.The study – which looked at voting patterns in the 2001 general election – found that those with higher IQ ratings were more likely to vote Lib-Dem or Green in an election.
The survey – including cognitive tests at ages five and ten – was followed up with a study of voting habits at 34. Those who voted Green had an average IQ of 108.3, with Lib-Dem voters just behind at 108.2.
Conservative and Labour voters were further behind – with scores of 103.7 and 103.0 respectively, while voters for Welsh nationalist Plaid Cymru scored an average of 102.5. Scottish National Party voters had an average IQ of 102.2. The research also showed that British National Party voters had the lowest average intelligence – scoring just 98.4. Non-voters were found to have an average IQ of 99.7.
hahahhahahhahah
(Report comment)
The Bishop of Stafford has called on people of good will to stand up and speak out against the British National Party.
Speaking ahead of a national BNP rally being held in Stoke-on-Trent tomorrow (Saturday), the Rt Revd Gordon Mursell said: “The BNP are dangerous because they try to make us believe that all our problems are caused by foreigners. This is nonsense.
“The Potteries today face many challenges – we need more investment, better housing, and better public transport for a start. But these challenges have nothing to do with foreigners. They are caused by a lack of vision among our politicians who seem unable to work together for the good of the city and the region.
“The reason the BNP are dangerous is because they claim to be able to improve public services when their real agenda is to repatriate immigrants and encourage locals and incomers to hate one another.
“Christians in particular have a moral duty to oppose the BNP because the Bible explicitly commands us to love the stranger and reverence the alien. We need more outsiders, not less: more skilled workers, more nurses, more office cleaners, and above all more people who bring energy and vision and a willingness to work hard.
“Stoke City Football Club didn’t get into the Premier League by hating foreigners. And if we want our city to be where it should be – in the premier league of British cities – we need to welcome everyone of goodwill and work together for the common good. The BNP are bad news.”
The Bishop of Stafford has arranged for a church in the centre of Stoke to be open on Saturday morning for a prayer vigil for peace and reconciliation.
Saint Mark’s Church in Broad Street, Shelton, Stoke on Trent, ST1 3BQ, will be open from 8.30am to 11.15am for a silent prayer vigil with short times of led prayers at 9.00, 10.00, and 11.00am.
At other times people will be able to pray at various prayer stations, focussing on different aspects of peace in the city of Stoke and world.
(Report comment)
oh dear, dogma, dogma, dogma. We are all showing evidence of that very human characteristic, wanting to generalise and compartmentalise people.
Human beings are complicated creatures and life is very rarely black and white. The older you get the more you realise that life is a learning curve from birth to death.
(Report comment)
kj, please keep your insulting, nasty remarks to yourself. You are beginning to show yourself up.
(Report comment)
“I here (sic) the the movement to reduce the age of consent to 12 also have a strong stance on immigration…maybe you(sorry decent people) should go and join them”
That’s the remark I was referring to (see my previous post). You may be a perfectly nice person but the above is not acceptable. This is a debate and you do not know what I am like and how I vote. Please control the desire to snipe in this fashion. You are doing yourself no favours.
(Report comment)
Yeah! I Get the 100th comment.
Thanks for all of the comment, and let’s keep this civil and non-sniping.
(Report comment)
@vectisfabber – an interesting and thought provoking post. Thanks.
(Report comment)
I did say sorry ;-)
(Report comment)
BY the way the map has been taken down. There is a website called “know your naighbour” where you put in your postcode and it gives you a list of BNP members within 5/10 miles
(Report comment)
Thought-provoking post from vectisfabber above. I’m sure that everything he says about Mrs VF is true, which highlights the ease with which views and prejudices get compartmentalised.
Sadly, empty vessels make most noise, which is why extremists get heard above the more reasonable voices of the majority. As with Muslims and evangelical Christians, we only get to hear about the rabid minority, a situation that is exacerbated by the media’s love of bad news.
The ‘meeja’ would say they are only providing what the public wants, but that’s really because the likes of The Sun and the News of the World can’t distinguish between what interests the public and what is in the public interest.
If I may say so, VB is an excellent example of interesting news that isn’t sensationalised. Other news outlets take note…
(Report comment)
Well, I don’t know where you said sorry but I forgive you anyway!! You obviously feel very strongly and you are to be applauded for it. You have had a lot to say and your sincerity comes through, together with a lot of relevant points.
This is a complex and difficult subject, hence the large number of posts and, as I said before, people are complicated creatures. That’s why I like animals, they are easy to understand, especially if you watch Cesar Millan weaving his magic. brilliant!
(Report comment)
I’ve just gone back and read Vectisjabbers post (missed it) and have a few comments (thats a surprise)
Everybody has the right to join, be involved in any legal activity they choose.
But you list a set of values and would answer them thus.
The BNP have changed areas where they have got councillors. Violent crime against mminorities goes up by up to 300%.
They are not the party of the family. The oppose mixed marriages and treat gay people as ill. So the only family they support are families that fit theri agenda.
HOw can a party that worships Hitler and denies real events happened make England proud of her history
THey want to change society so that white is rewarded not merit.
There are other parties that wish to contain immigration so why choose one that is tainted by violence and racism.
This is no knee jerk reaction. I have been opposed to this party since its conception from the ashes of the NF.
I state again ..you cannot be a decent person if you are happy to stand beside mass murdering Nail bombers, paodophiles, rascists and criminals from the very top to the very bottom. Some do so unknowingly, and may even turn a blind eye to it, but it is reality and it takes five seconds to find out it is fact
click here http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-3794899708486815008&hl=en
(Report comment)
As I said, I carry no brief for the BNP – far from it. But I do understand those who have joined it because they feel utterly disenfranchised by the political establishment, because I feel that way myself. Who is fighting my corner and espousing the values I have held dear all my life? Answer – no-one.
And, talking of reality, it is surely better to consider why good non-racist people are joining the BNP rather than to simply tar them with the same brush because of what they have done out of frustrationie. read the message, don’t shoot the messenger.
The difference between my wife and I, who share most values, is that she feels she has done something (whether it is right or wrong) which addresses the problems which face this country and, when she asks me what I am doing, I have no answer because I cannot see that any part of the political establishment is representing my views.
I don’t support (for example) nail bombers or gay bashing, but I also don’t support (for example) militant Muslim clerics or teenage mothers who leap aboard the gravy train because the state feather-beds them (and don’t tell me that they don’t exist, because there is at least one of them in my family).
My work brings me into contact with a lot of people who have to make a meagre living out of a contracting economy and, without exception (I tell a lie: there is one exception, someone whose work ties them into the public sector), they all carry the same opinion about the state of this country. And that opinion isn’t driven by racism, it’s driven by concern about how the country has changed, concern that the establishment appears to favour those who deserve it least, concern about how public money is poured into supporting those who come here with their hands held out before they get off the plane and those who take but contribute nothing.
There is a lot of bitterness at the perceived unfairness about how things in this country have turned turtle, and become contrary to traditional values and common sense. As a consequence, some have turned to the BNP in reaction. Rather than berate them for the fleas they may have picked up through lying down with dogs, perhaps efforts might be better directed towards coming up with a way to prevent them feeling so disenfranchised, and providing them with a respectable alternative to the vileness which the BNP continues to be under the surface.
But I’ll be blowed if I can think of one which doesn’t get me labelled a racist thug (which is the last thing anyone who knows me would call me).
(Report comment)
“make England proud of her history”
I always thought it was pretty chequered, but then I’m not a historian.
As for “you cannot be a decent person..” I guess that depends on your definition of decent. I’ve worked in Parkhurst and met a few people who broke the rules, some through habit, and some in a moment of madness. What struck me was how much like everyone else they were – I even had dinner with one after his release…
(Report comment)
Thank you Vectis fabber for your post, it was honest, candid and touching. What a testament to your marriage sir that even though you oppose your wife’s BNP membership you have the good grace to allow her free will. Your posting seems to be the most balanced of all I’ve read so far. We could all do with some of that humility reading this blog especially you Kj. Posting 91 states “what a load of rubbish” You really know it all don’t you. You know Vectis fabber’s wife better than him apparently cos she MUST be a Hitler loving racist cos you say so. How arrogant is that? Mrs Fabber must have a secret tattoo of Gerballs ( has no balls at alll….) her husband has yet to find presumably. Do you know what you remind me of kj, a Victorian father stern faced and all ways right? Do you ride home on a penny farthing then run into the house screaming at the servants “bring me my doctor’s bag I feel it coming on again. I must rid the streets of these whores!”
James p (93) I would not consider myself right wing and I’m sorry if my postings have given that impression. I will not label groups of people as I find it inaccurate. All Tories didn’t love Thatcher and all Labour voters aren’t northern with whippets. I think Vectis faabers comments pay testament to the error of “labels”
Posting 96 – The bible can be used to promote anything. Slavery was branded as a biblical teaching once. What about Leviticusb12:5 If a woman gives birth to a boy she is “unclean” for 7 day. If she has a daughter she is “unclean” for two weeks. Oh is that right. As a mother of two (one of each) I have spent 21 days of my life hideously rancid. “Reverence the alien” I remember one who came from the stars, was misunderstood, died and rose again…….always loved the film ET
(Report comment)
I’ve not bothered with this as I really can’t be a***d with it, but Mary wrote:
“Do you know what you remind me of kj, a Victorian father stern faced and all ways right”
Ain’t that the truth!
From wind bags, sorry turbines, to the BNP, on every subject kj is the island answer to google, wikipedia, Hansard, The Court of Appeal and the U.N.
Must be a great planet to live on.
(Report comment)
Oh I live with duality very well, because I am happy for everybody to be what they want to be. My wife and her family are all devote Lutherans, whilst I am a qhuasi aetheist. I really do have friends who claim they are fascists, but not racsist. My sister in law voted BNP at her local election 2 years ago. People live with these paradoxes……
All I do is paint an accurate picture of the BNP, if you like that picture feel free to join them, thats your right…but I’m not going to pretend they are just like the WI down the road (maybe the Berlin branch 1938) or even the Labour and Conservative Party. When you sign your name on that form and send in your fee you are part of that movement called the BNP and all that rot in her….Even the Daily Mail is anti BNP surely that says enough:-)
(Report comment)
Let’s keep it clean and non-personal please.
(Report comment)
Bet you never expected all this did you Sal & Simon? A mammoth blog complete with a huge dose of blinkered intolerance, a good helping of humour which is almost surreal at times and some thoughtful and pertinent posts too. Makes for good copy I should think (can posts on a blog be called copy or does that only apply to paper, I dunno ‘cos I’m not clever or educated you see, although my spelling’s not bad?).
I’d have MT on my side in a debate any time, better to have her inside ….ing out than outside ….ing in! She makes good relevant points and in a most original and colourful way.
A good balance for kj, who does take himself rather seriously.
Carry on blogging.
(Report comment)
Hazel Blears (Labour) was quoted last night on sky news as being concerned why so many “white, working class” voters were turning to the BNP as they had been let down by main stream politics. Stop blaming those pushed to this extreme and start blaming the useless politicians for their limp wristed approach to every thing. All they care about is their picture in the media and their John Lewis list. The BNP may well not be the answer and may make things worse….could you please tell me what is the answer?
I close this point by condensing an e mail form Michael Richards better known as Kramer form the hit US sitcom “Seinfeld”
You have Martin Luther King Day (a national holiday)
You have Black History month
You have Cesar Chavez day
You have Yom Hashoah
If I asked for a white pride Day, a white history month, an organisation for whites only you would cry “RACIST”
A white woman can not enter Miss Black America but all denominations can entre Miss America.60% of college’s openly proclaim they are black colleges, where are the white colleges?
You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange and you’re not afraid to announce it. I am proud. But you call me racist. Is it only whites that are racist?
Also look at YouTube “Fun with stereo types by the Southern avenger” You may not like it but what they say is thought provoking.
(Report comment)
Oh, pleeeze, stop now!
Sal and Simon. Can’t we move this inside the forum to a thread called ‘closet racist soapbox’ so the rest of us don’t have to keep tripping over it whilst looking for something vaguely edifying?
(Report comment)
Would you care to explain that last remark steve s? If you are accusing anyone of racism then how about having the courage of your convictions and saying so outright?
To stifle debate is to stifle freedom, but that’s the road we’re on in GB, even if not on VB.
(Report comment)
Honestly, who cares what Kramer off Seinfeld has to say about white women not being allowed to enter Miss Black America? (I suspect, btw, that what stops them is the fact that they’re not black)
It stops being debate when we’re reduced to quoting tripe (even on VB)
(Report comment)
Right thats it I’m off to leave you to get on with it. Thought these were interesting comments on an interesting topic. If you want to call some one a ‘closet racist soapbox’ for doing nothing more than posting other views than your own this is not the blog I thougth it was. Maybe I’ve hit too close to home….? You have won steve s you have upset me by your unfair commets. I will never blog here again and I ask to be removed from the VB e mail too please.
(Report comment)
What a twerp you are steve s.
(Report comment)
…and you still haven’t explained yourself steve, so I guess that makes you a coward as well as a twerp.
(Report comment)
There’s been a lot of good debate on this one – and it holds the record for the most comments posted on a single story, but it’s now descending in to personal insults – Not healthy or constructive.
We’ll have no option but to close the comment thread if it continues in a similar vein.
(Report comment)
For the more ignorant and for the avoidance of doubt: –
The online Cambridge dictionary has the following to say on “Racism”
“The belief that people’s qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races”
It say’s the following about a “Racist”
“Someone who believes that other races are not as good as their own and therefore treats them unfairly”
It also say’s the following on “intolerance”
“Disapproving of or refusing to accept ideas or ways of behaving that are different from your own”
Now, I’m not university educated, but I am socially aware, reasonably articulate and happy to listen and debate. I can’t see any racists on here at all, only passionate debate from those of us who are debating the BNP and its rise in publicity / membership, but I do see plenty of “Bigot’s”
The Cambridge online dictionary has this to say this on a “Bigot”: –
“A person who has strong, unreasonable beliefs and who thinks that anyone who does not have the same beliefs is wrong”
Not everyone like’s what some of us have to say, but we have the right to say it freely and without ludicrous accusations of racism, flaming or shouting down. If Steve S has had enough of this debate, try one of the others and leave this one alone as over time it will run and run. I’m glad to see that his remarks on closet racists has had moderated comment. Many others have had moderated comments on insulting language for far less.
(Report comment)
How are those caps fitting, y’all?
(Report comment)
@Mary
Hey, don’t judge the editorial side of VB by the people who comment! :)
It’s a shame that you’ve decided not to continue posting on this thread, and hope that, after a period of reflection, you’ll consider contributing to other stories in the future.
BTW – It looks like the quote that you attributed to Michael Richards might not actually be by him.
(Report comment)
Pardon? I genuinely don’t know what you are getting at steve, please explain yourself. What caps are you talking about and what’s it got to do with the subject under discussion? Do you mean school caps, Dutch caps, bottle caps, tooth caps, night caps etc etc etc etc?
(Report comment)
Simon if, when talking about personal remarks, you are referring to my calling steve s a twerp and a coward, then I apologise to the readers of this blog for allowing my feelings get the better of me. You are quite right of course and perhaps we will see an apology from steve s for the personal and deeply offensive remarks he has made (the ones which were responsible for my reaction).
(Report comment)
In response to editorial comment – my apologies to you if you felt I was judging you and your team, not the case. Interesting about Michael Richards blurb. I found two sites saying he had said that, just goes to show you can’t trust all you read! Also found very funny items on the American comic actor Chris Rock’s “ N “ word routine that was played to a black audience who embraced this most unpleasant of words to empower them selves and also laugh at some of their fellow blacks and the use of it by them. It was refreshing and captivating to see a group turn the tables on the whole race issue, so prominent in the good old US of A.
Chill my Piglet friend. Steve’s offensive comment was 117; he has been further allowed to comment at 123 (3 hours later) bit late for an apology now even if one did turn up.
It’s not “ a shame” that I’ve decided not to blog any more I can’t for my own protection, Steve s posting is still there calling me a racist. Nothing could be further from the truth (and if you know me personally and professionally you would laugh out loud at such a suggestion) as I just want to be free thinking and discuss all options and opinions. Thanks for the offer but I’d rather not be encouraged to blog else where on the site but have the free will to blog where I wish guided by the rules of the blog administration, and the law. To that end please remove all my postings and my name on VB and as previously requested remove me from the e mailing list. Thank you for your help in this matter and good luck with the site
(Report comment)
That square at the end was a smile, not sure why it didn’t show up!
(Report comment)
Simon at 121, why DON’T you close this thread down? It’s obvious that steve s has not got the decency to apologise for his bigoted remarks, which are still there.
Free speech and expressing your opinion are quite different from being gratuitously offensive.
(Report comment)
I’m very puzzled as to why observing a double standard is classified as racism by some. The example given is the Miss Black America – we have the MOBO (Music Of Black Origin) awards over here. I have no problem whatsoever with the MOBO awards, but I can imagine the comments from the PC Brigade if we had MOWO awards.
I’m happy for people of all races to take pride in their origins, cultures, backgrounds and heritages. That includes white English.
And none of those elements provides any grounds on which to judge someone – my belief is that the only thing which matters is how you treat others.
(Report comment)
The difference between us, my dear FOP, is that I don’t particularly care what you think of me and that I can actually be bothered to see what was said before I get my knickers in such a twist.
However, in the hope that you might leave Simon to get on with more important things I’ll endeavour to offer an explanation.
The views attributed (probably wrongly!) to Michael Richards (who is, in my view a racist) on the mashup thread were (in my view) verging on, if not overtly, racist. Apart from this they were fatuous, inane and pernicious. That Mary Teague would choose to quote such tripe without moderating comment, or, better still, outright criticism, is surprising, unless she wishes, in some way, to be associated with the views expressed. I did not call her, or you, a racist, but if Michael Richards wants to come on board and tell us all what a lovely guy he is and how most of his best friends are black, I might be bold enough to call him one.
Hope this helps.
Your cowardly, twerpy, hypocritical bigot and active christian friend, Steve.
(Report comment)
So, Steve, you are saying that it is racist for white people to celebrate their colour and culture but not for black people to celebrate theirs? please explain why.
You are saying that it is NOT racist for non-white people to have their own, exclusive organisations eg Black Police Association, competitions eg Miss Black America and awards eg MOBA? Given the above, please explain why.
BUT you are saying it IS racist to comment upon that in conjunction with the fact that there are no such equivalent ‘white’ organisations etc. If someone, for example on this blog, brings the discrepancy into the discussion they are RACIST by association, tried and found guilty.
This was just one of many relevant points brought into the discussion and all you can do is sick up a lot of drivel instead of debating the matter intelligently. This sort of attitude is one of the reasons the BNP is thriving and it is the hypocritical mouthings of people like you and the whole PC establishment which is driving it.
I suggest that you pray for some understanding because there will never be harmony until there is consensus and you only get that by communication not by repression. Amen.
(Report comment)
“MOWO awards”
Which reminds me.. :-)
http://www.averagewhiteband.com/
(Report comment)
Steve – I’m so very sorry if you didn’t understand my point let me help you. I posted the Richards comment with no other desire than to flag it up as an opinion (which may not even actually be his – oh the joy of the internet!) I wrote at the bottom, have a look that you (by this I meant the body of readers of VB) may not like it but it’s interesting. If you think its tripe you’re entitled to say so to Mr Richards. You have quite incorrectly assumed that I think this too. How do you know that? Just because I didn’t lambast these comments directly doesn’t equate to any deduction of my thoughts. I may have been waiting for others to comment before I spoke. But that clearly doesn’t matter to you. I have concerns that you seem to say this man must be racist by the posted comment? I’d like to see a stronger case to label him with that unpleasant word. If I give you the benefit of the doubt when was he sacked from his TV spot? Have his fellow workers demanded his removal from their working environment? Has there been a mass return of any merchandise by the public as it would be quite wrong to financially support an “overtly racist” actor?
You should care what people think my very, very dear Steve. If one offends, even rightly, it is a foolish person if one does not evaluate your comments to try and see why one has been offensive. Try to see the other side. We progress by fault. Great feeling even great compassion can lead to great fault. If you can’t self analysis you can’t move forward. Look back at all my posting to see how many times I’ve acknowledged other sides. I may not agree but I do nod in their direction. I’m not saying I’m better than you I’m saying I’m hopefully a little more open minded and my knickers are twist free.
You did call me a racist and you have been allowed to do so. That is why I wish to with draw for my own protection.
(Report comment)
@FOP.
Para 1. Err, no, I didn’t say that.
Para 2. I didn’t say that either.
Para 3. No, don’t recall ever saying that.
Are you familiar with the term straw man?
@Mary.
But you haven’t gone have you Mary? you just keep talking about it.
I’m qualified to label Michael Richards racist because I’ve seen the tirade which got him into hot water with my own eyes. I’m also perfectly entitled to label the views attributed to him as tripe (so long as Sal and Simon consider it reasonable for me to do so) on this blog.
That you presented these views with the introduction “I close this point…” (what point were you actually making?) led me to understand that you were using the views to illustrate/close a point you were making. I can’t think why I would have come to this conclusion.
You brought the views into the debate thereby creating a ’soapbox’ for the person who (originally) expressed them. At the time you suggested that this was Michael Richards who, as I believe I’ve explained, I consider to be a racist. Does any of this help?
Your knickers are not twist free, you still maintain that I called you a racist and that I have been allowed to do so. I actually didn’t. This seems to be causing you some discomfort.
Thank you very much for your kind advice about being more open minded, it’s just that some issues like….say…racism, just don’t have two sides for me because they usually end up with a lot of people dead or badly hurt.
Happily this is not likely to be the case here, is it? Do you think we could ever be friends?
(Report comment)
having read a number of the comments on this blog i must agree with some of the points made on either side, but that is how it should be, as Still (JUST) we are living in a democracy and Still (JUST ABOUT) we still have Freedom of Speech, but what happened last week with the BNP list,is an attack on those freedoms, Britain under the LIB/LAB/CON/EU is becoming a totalitarian state and you will soon lose all these rights, so be prepared to live under a Stalinists repression unless you are prepared to defend our rights, the BNP are the only party who are doing that for YOU! support us or be slaves, first they came for the BNP, I said Nothing now they come for me..geoffgc
(Report comment)
” I close this point by condensing an e mail form Michael Richards better known as Kramer form the hit US sitcom “Seinfeld”
You have Martin Luther King Day (a national holiday)
You have Black History month
You have Cesar Chavez day
You have Yom Hashoah
If I asked for a white pride Day, a white history month, an organisation for whites only you would cry “RACIST”
A white woman can not enter Miss Black America but all denominations can entre Miss America.60% of college’s openly proclaim they are black colleges, where are the white colleges?
You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange and you’re not afraid to announce it. I am proud. But you call me racist. Is it only whites that are racist? ”
Below from Steve S
” The views attributed (probably wrongly!) to Michael Richards (who is, in my view a racist) on the mashup thread were (in my view) verging on, if not overtly, racist “
(Report comment)
My knickers are not twist free. Please help me! Steve you are the “qualified” blogger here please don’t give up on us mere amateurs. We need your expect opinion. The is a lot at state here A LOT….I leave my vulnerable, ill informed gusset in your capable hands. Do as you will with me.
(Report comment)
Ok, FOP. Now we’re getting somewhere.
First, you tell me if you sympathise with the views expressed above (because I can’t be bothered to justify myself to a ‘devil’s advocate’)
Then I’ll know exactly where you’re coming from and tell you why I think the view is verging on, if not overtly, racist.
p.s. There are lots of ‘whites only’ organisations. The kkk is one of them. Are they racists?
(Report comment)
I’m sorry I was laughing as I was typing here’s me second go – My knickers are not twist free. Please help me! Steve you are the “qualified” blogger here please don’t give up on us amateurs. We need your expert opinion. There is a lot at state here A LOT….I leave my vulnerable, ill informed gusset in your capable hands. Do as you will with me.
(Report comment)
Mary,
I really appreciate your generous offer but I fear that, on this occasion, I am obliged to decline.
(Report comment)
I’m sorry the giggles got the better of me ;-) kkk are not racist by definition of their whites only admissions but they are racist by their criminal actions and their hatred of other creeds.
(Report comment)
Only the criminal activity associated with their hatred of other creeds, surely. Otherwise all criminals would be racist by definition of their criminality as opposed to their racism. ;-)
(Report comment)
I meant to say, of course, by VIRTUE of their criminality. I was too busy laughing, too! Isn’t it lovely to have good old a joke together about who’s a racist and who isn’t?
(Report comment)
sure is
(Report comment)
Steve, I do not think there should be ANY “white only”, “black only”, “brown only”, “yellow only” etc. organisations of any kind. You are being ridiculous in quoting the kkk at me, there are plenty of terrorist organisations (which I consider the kkk to be) which include people of all hues and religious persuasion. I am not aware of any white only organisations, if you would like to tell me of them then I am happy to listen and note.
The point is that in this country, as in America I assume, there are plenty of recognised and respectable organisations solely for non-white people. I do not think that is right and nor does Michael whatever-his-name-is (don’t watch the program ‘Senfeld’ so don’t know who you are talking about). Equally I do not advocate the setting up of same for white people only (or non-ethnic minority or whatever the PC term is).
What I AM saying is that what’s good for the goose is good for the gander and I can understand people feeling strongly when they see the double standards and pc attitudes of the liberal left. It is courting trouble for the future and this is surely something no-one in their right mind wants.
By calling Michael … a racist for commenting on the fact that it would be considered racist to have organisations solely for white people, whereas it’s ok for black people, you are saying that I, too, am a racist. You are wrong and I find your comment offensive in the extreme. Not only that but your statements indicate that, by association, my assertions in paras. 1, 2 and 3 are correct.
As I said before, your refusal to accept that there is merit in what has been said and that it deserves serious discussion instead of knee-jerk accusations of racism, displays an apalling lack of understanding on your part.
So now please do me the courtesy of explaining why you consider me to be racist, as promised.
(Report comment)
History and the potential for offence or the causing of actual offence and also intent, to a lesser extent, is what makes the difference between observation and racist behaviour.I am not sure that criminality is necessarily a factor because legislation is passed as a possible remedy to behaviour that society feels is unacceptable and should be criminalised.
I have been on the receiving end of fairly mild anti white racism by a group of young black men and whilst it was unpleasant it was more bearable for me with no history of being personally oppressed etc than might have been the case had it been a group of white thugs being racist to a black man whose ancestors had been enslaved. Much depends on the circumstances.
On the other hand I find anti Semitism totally offensive and unacceptable partly because I have family links to the holocaust but also I suspect, because it is generally accepted and understood that anti-Semitism is wrong.
Racism is a form of bullying. Using someones physical or sometimes cultural differences to make their lives difficult or unbearable in order to gain some advantage over them.
In the racist attack that I was subjected too I was called “honky white boy” (pretty mild I know but there was menace involved). If I called a white friend “honky white boy” it would be dismissed as fooling around but said by a black man to a white man with clear intent to cause offence the comment is racist. Actually I am not sure I really know what a “Honky” is (I expect someone will enlighten me) but at the time it felt threatening and racist.
As a white middle class liberal, I find the use of the “N” word very offensive and intrinsically racist largely I think, by virtue of the history of that word and the pain and suffering caused by the enslavement of black Africans by white Europeans.
It is worth mentioning at this point that I believe that arguing about the details of who did what to who in the slave trade is irrelevant to the debate on racism in my view. It would be the same as someone arguing that the holocaust was somehow less a race crime because not only Jews were murdered, or because some Jews worked in the death camps helping to murder other Jews. It simply doesn’t alter the impact of racist comments and their wrongness.
I knew shouldn’t have got started on this one!
(Report comment)
Tell you what FOP, I can see why you might not want to go public with this. PM me (through the forum) answer the question I asked about whether you sympathise with the views expressed (no weasle words, yes or no) and I’ll tell you why I think the views are verging on, if not overtly, racist.
I presume you have access to the internet, try something like ‘whites only organisations’.. ‘white supremacist groups’….you’ll find there’s loads!
I’m not sure the plain old racists in the kkk would take too kindly to being called terrorists, btw. Surely that would only apply while they were committing acts of terrorism.
p.s. I called Michael Richards a racist for being a racist, not for the quote attributed to him. Check it out on Youtube under Michael Richards’ racist tirade.
146! It’s going to take us ages to get the Maharaja thread back up to number one.
(Report comment)
I do not consider any supremacist group based on colour/religion/race or anything else to be a respectable, therefore I have dismissed those as irrelevant to the argument.
The point in question is:does ANY respectable group have a right to exclusivity based on colour? That is what we are looking at. Why should it be acceptable for one colour and not the other? It is very divisive.
If you can name me some RESPECTABLE groups/awards, or whatever, which are for white people only then that weakens the point I am making and I am happy to acknowledge it. Please give me some names; I have to go out to a kkk meeting now and don’t have time to google (that was a joke, admittedly in bad taste).
I have made it quite clear that I do not agree with organisations which are based on someone’s colour be they black, white, green, red, or rainbow coloured.
In that respect, yes, I agree with Michael… but, if you are saying that I am wrong and that I am racist for saying the above, then I think you are round the bend and a danger to race relations in this country.
On the other hand, you may be barking up the wrong tree and have just got hold of the wrong end of the stick in your desire to have a go at me.
(Report comment)
Yes, that’ll be it.
Curiously, I recall the ‘having a go’ starting from the opposite direction.
(Report comment)
Well I’m back from my secret meeting and I’m pleased to see that you agree with me Steve.
My recollection is that you started the sniping but, as I can’t be bothered to go back through the postings and I realise that you have work to do in beefing up the Maharajah thread, I am happy to agree to differ.
(Report comment)
Oh, last point.
Would the BNP count as respectable? According to Wiki it’s a ‘whites only’ party.
Glad we’ve all made up, Best regards, Steve.
(Report comment)
I See by the way that my comment has now waited 9 hours that this site does not want their readers to know the truth
(Report comment)
By The way the enterprising young man you mentioned at the begining will if found be prosecuted
(Report comment)
as will this site
(Report comment)
@geoffgc – It’s not that this “site does not want their readers to know the truth.” It’s simply that we were out all day looking at middle schools for our daughter and attending a planning meeting.
As a newcomer to the site, you might not know that VentnorBlog is not run by a massive publishing company, but a few people doing their best to provide a service to the community.
Your comment was just caught up in a moderation queue before it was published.
(Report comment)
Glad that humour has blossomed between Mary, FoP & Steve S, at the end of this thread with – shows that love is a better force than hate.
(Report comment)
Wish I’d seen your comments earlier, geoff. I’d never have bothered getting into the discussion with my new friends, Mary and FOP.
The Niemoller poem you ‘paraphrase’, it was ABOUT the Nazis, wasn’t it?
Did you intend your post to be satirical or can irony really be this delicious?
How right you are Simon, love is so much better than hate. xxx
(Report comment)
“this site does not want their readers to know the truth”
Which is..?
@simon – “at the end of this thread”
Are you sure? :-)
(Report comment)
Geoff you’re no Martin Niemoller. If you knew anything at all about Niemoller you would not have dared to even attempt use his words in a defence of the BNP. Like my own father, Niemoller was caught up in the rise of National Socialism in the 30’s and like my dad, soon realised the evil that it was about and turned to oppose all that it stood for.
Niemoller’s reward was to spend the war years enslaved in concentration camps. After the war he became a campaigner against the Right and was instrumental in the Stuttgart Declaration of Guilt. He was also a pacifist and leading light in CND.
You aren’t Martin Niemoller Geoff. Not yet anyway! So stop pretending.
The BNP’s new image, fools nobody of any consequence. You may as well have carried on with your skin heads and swastika’s which is what I remember of your lot when we marched against you in the 80’s.
(Report comment)
dear Chris, by quoting Martin Niemoller i was not making light of his suffering, i was merely pointing out that like him there will be people suffering the same fate unless we all wake up and realise what the Lib/Lab/Con/EU pact has in store for us all in the immediate future.
my father volunteered on the 1st day of the 2nd world war to fight nazism + tyranny and i am proud of him for it,now my generation has got to stand up and fight it again only this time it is the lib/lab/con/eu pacts Stalinism.
i was one of the ones who protested the Ban the Bomb..etc when in my teens and before kennedy was shot it looked like we were actually going to make the world a better place, but from the second kennedy was shot, evil took its place.
the BNP, granted in the 80,s was everything i stood against, but over the past 5 years or so our chairman has cleaned house and distanced itself from the National Front influence, hence all the independant parties that have sprung up, these are mostly ex-BNP members, it was actually one of these who leaked the list because he was sacked for National Front ideals.
the BNP are now made up of Doctors,Army personel,Architects,ex-chief of police,scientists,authers,police,chartered accountants,miners,labourers,nurses,teachers…etc none are nazi,s at all, the general public are being lied to,conned and indoctrinated by the government run and owned MEDIA including and especially the BBC, Why do you think they dont allow us the air-time the other criminal parties get, because they do not want you to know the truth and will continue to use all means possible to stop you knowing the truth, like issueing Taizer Guns to 10,000 police officers to keep your mouth shut and arrest and intimmidate and illtreat anyone they arrest such as the 13 in merseyside at the week-end.
after the list was published, up to now 2 members have had threatening and abusive phone calls and to add to the idiots who did this to there infamy they picked on two people who are bed-ridden one with MS and another who a while back mysteriously went down with blood poisening, and you call us nazis.
as far as Childrens schools are concerned SIMON, it dosnt matter which school you choose, the children have for 15 years been indoctrinated with this stalinist brainwashing, just like my children, what was it Blair said…EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION, he should have and really meant INDOCTRINATION, INDOCTRINATION, INDOCTRINATION, again the public has been conned, and all your Biased views on anyone standing up for the true british peoples rights are racist and nazis are just a symptom of your Government Media induced brainwashing and Social-Engineering, wake up before it is too late for your childrens sake, as it is to them you will leave our country either in slavery or Free as we grew up ourselves the BNP are NOT Nazis, we are just ordinary English, Welsh, Scots and Irish people who just want our country back.
those with the list should immediately destroy it or inform the police or our party of those who intend to use it to create fear and misery to people who belong to a LEGAL political party, freedom of speech and Choice of affiliation and FREEDOM itself is the Loser if you dont
(Report comment)
Thanks for telling us geoff….where do we sign up?
(Report comment)
It does sound very attractive Steve. I think I need to sleep on it.
(Report comment)
“true british peoples rights”
And whom do you call British? Think carefully…
(Report comment)
“the enterprising young man you mentioned at the begining will if found be prosecuted”
What – for connecting postcodes to a map? He didn’t leak the list, a BNP staff member did! Your comment speaks volumes.
(Report comment)
Careful James. They even have their own Bank.
(Report comment)
Interesting to have a new blogger on this topic – geoffgc. Makes me and my mate piglet seem rather bland!Oink oink x
(Report comment)
http://www.bnp.org.uk
(Report comment)
“government run and owned MEDIA including and especially the BBC”
Really? You don’t remember the Andrew Gilligan affair, then? I have a feeling that Rupert Murdoch and the Barclay brothers might have a different take on the matter, too.
Also, I think that Steve’s enquiry about signing up might have been TIC. I wouldn’t normally explain, but as I mentioned earlier, right-wingers do seem a trifle short on humour. :-)
(Report comment)
“my mate piglet”
He’s Piglet’s friend, Mary. I don’t think Piglet has firm views about much, really, except perhaps haycorns and Woozles…
(Report comment)
Love,peace, hugs and curries all round.
(Report comment)
I must be Pooh then, although Piglet has other friends, for example Tigger, Kanga, Roo, Eyeore, Wol and, of course, Christopher Robin.
As far as I know none of them belong to a supremacist group, none of them are pig, bear, tiger, kangaroo, donkey or owl supremacists. Not so sure about Christopher Robin though, he’s very English and therefore automatically a suspect.
(Report comment)
Looks like this discussion has now reached a natural end. Readers are more than welcome to continue the chat over on the discussion forum.
(Report comment)